advice for fellow liberal Catholics

[indra]

I attended a Catholic high school. Never once did they ask if I believed in Jesus. They even let me skip weekly chapel if I wanted.

Actually, I think that's great. It shows they weren't trying to convert you to their religion, which I find incredibly refreshing. I'm sure they felt that you were getting the religious education your parents wanted you to receive (at home, at your own church, etc.).

 

[Macfistowannabe]

Who teaches you this crap?! You're really beginning to piss me off with your blanket generalisations, offensive comments, and your arrogance. You have at one time or another said something offensive about everyone but white conservative Christians.

Catholics have made mistakes, yes just like protestants. Please take a look at a history in theology before you spout off such drivel.

And please tell me what about liberalism conflicts with scripture that conservativism doesn't.

I don't think Jesus would approve of a captial punishment system.

I don't think he'd approve of tax cuts to the rich.

I don't think he'd approve of pre-imptive wars.

I don't think he'd approve of catering to the pharmaceutical companies why the elderly can't afford help.

Would you like me to go on?

If Jesus came down today, don't kid yourself in thinking he'd be a conservative, because he wouldn't. He also wouldn't be a liberal. But he'd come here and shake up a lot churches and these people who are apparantly speaking for him. And believe me he'd shake up whatever church taught you these extremely close minded beliefs you have.

What's the beef, sir? My spirituality ALWAYS comes before politics, science, anything else. Right or left, politics before Christ is not my way to live. I too disagree with a number of Bush's policies, and I'd consider myself a centrist before a republican. Politics are garbage, and you took my statement way too far.

If you only think political, here's why I am not a liberal:
- I disagree with abortion.

Thank you for reading.

 

[BVS]

What's the beef, sir? My spirituality ALWAYS comes before politics, science, anything else. Right or left, politics before Christ is not my way to live. I too disagree with a number of Bush's policies, and I'd consider myself a centrist before a republican. Politics are garbage, and you took my statement way too far.

If you only think political, here's why I am not a liberal:
- I disagree with abortion.

Thank you for reading.

You're funny. So the only liberal issue you have issue with is abortion, so you claim that all liberalism is in conflict with the scriptures?

I don't have any beef except that you constantly make blanket statements, have nothing to back them up, and then say well I believe in spreading unconditional love. Like that will make it all better. Well your language speaks otherwise.

I agree no one should choose political party over their beliefs, but don't tell anyone here that their polical leanings conflict with their spirituality. Despite what you think you don't own the truth, no human does.

 

[Macfistowannabe]

You're funny. So the only liberal issue you have issue with is abortion, so you claim that all liberalism is in conflict with the scriptures?

I don't have any beef except that you constantly make blanket statements, have nothing to back them up, and then say well I believe in spreading unconditional love. Like that will make it all better. Well your language speaks otherwise.

I agree no one should choose political party over their beliefs, but don't tell anyone here that their polical leanings conflict with their spirituality. Despite what you think you don't own the truth, no human does.

I am funny, if that's what you want to call me.

Not all liberalism. I may sound very Old Testament to you, but when God calls something an abomination, I don't believe in promoting it - referring to gay marriage. However, I certainly believe that if Jesus were to come back today, he would definately socialize with gays and other outcasts to society. God claimed prostitution was wrong, yet Jesus socialized with the prostitutes. No wonder he was hated.

I believe in unconditional love, absolutely, but I also believe in unconditional truth. Thou shall not kill. No exceptions. This might even get on your good side, but I believe that there is no sin that you cannot forgive someone for. I believe that God will forgive any sin as long as it is confessed wholeheartedly and the sinner is remourseful.

Politics in general is garbage. If my political leanings are somehow incorrect with God's intentions, it won't matter. My heart is in God, and that's what he cares about more. If I'm wrong about some political view I have, I'm sure he will let me know when I come face to face with him. God will judge how "funny" I am when the time is relevant.

 

[BVS]

I may sound very Old Testament to you, but when God calls something an abomination, I don't believe in promoting it - referring to gay marriage.

Old Testament? Maybe a little, but I was thinking more borderline fanatical.

God never called homosexuality an abomination, PLEASE READ YOUR BIBLE. This is man's law, which you are quoting. If it really was an abomination, then you might as well ban all seafood establishments because the same piece of which you speak of says eating shellfish is abomination.

Maybe Bush will put that in the constitution as well.

 

[anitram]

I
I believe in unconditional love, absolutely, but I also believe in unconditional truth.

This is a thread discussing issues of liberal Catholics.

You keep bringing up the absolute truth of the Scripture, which I may remind you that NO Catholic, liberal or otherwise actually considers to be the final authority. Hence, your arguments here are completely out of place.

 

[verte76]

This is a thread discussing issues of liberal Catholics.

You keep bringing up the absolute truth of the Scripture, which I may remind you that NO Catholic, liberal or otherwise actually considers to be the final authority. Hence, your arguments here are completely out of place.

Correct. The whole "infallible scripture as the final authority" teaching is a key core of Protestantism; it's nowhere to be found in official Catholic teaching. Mind you, I have nothing against Protestants, it's just that I'm not one.

 

[pax]

Okay. Now that that issue has been nailed out, let's keep to a discussion of liberal Catholicism here as intended by Verte.

Thank you.

 

[Macfistowannabe]

Hello friends,

I did not mean to heat up the debate, and I shouldn't have passed any judgement on you guys.

I apologize if I steered the discussion off shore. I think that Verte did offer good answers to my questions about Catholicism. Thanks again for that. I may be back for a few more Catholicism questions if that's not a problem. I'll try to be more understanding the second time around. Apologies again if I "spewed" my own perceptions/misconceptions about Catholic liberalism.

Your friend (I hope, anyways),
Macphistowannabe

 

[blueyedpoet]

machpistowannabe, as long as you like U2 you'll always be a friend...the minute you don't though....*shudders

 

[verte76]

It's all good Macfistowannabe, there were things you hadn't been told about Catholicism. I'm always happy to fill people in. You're my friend!

 

[blueyedpoet]

Um, I know this may sound like an unfair question...but typically speaking, what do liberal catholics think of Dogma (the movie)?
Obviously no one here can speak for all liberal catholics....I'm just curious

 

[verte76]

Um, I know this may sound like an unfair question...but typically speaking, what do liberal catholics think of Dogma (the movie)?
Obviously no one here can speak for all liberal catholics....I'm just curious

Doh.......I'm not familiar with the movie!! Anyone else?

 

[Macfistowannabe]

machpistowannabe, as long as you like U2 you'll always be a friend...the minute you don't though....*shudders

Uh-oh! Just kidding.

I would like to know how Catholic liberals interpret the story of Sodom and Gommorah (spelled right?). I know that it's not a stab that singles out homosexuality, but sexual immorality in general. Just interested in your perspectives.

 

[LoveTurns2Rust]

i am a moderate conservative, but i think there is a case for the fact that God is not against capital punishment...He certainly handed out capital punishment, and although we are not Him, Jesus advised listening to your elected government.

 

[LoveTurns2Rust]

i won't answer the question about sodom and gomorah because i am not too liberal, although i agree it is against loose morals for heteros too.

 

[verte76]

i won't answer the question about sodom and gomorah because i am not too liberal, although i agree it is against loose morals for heteros too.

I would agree that it is basically a warning against loose morals of any kind.

 

[nbcrusader]

In Catholicism, how does one arrive on a meaning from a passage of Scripture? It has been said that the Bible is not considered a final authority for Catholics. Do you turn to papal declarations? Statements from the priesthood?

I really am curious about this process.

 

[verte76]

In Catholicism, how does one arrive on a meaning from a passage of Scripture? It has been said that the Bible is not considered a final authority for Catholics. Do you turn to papal declarations? Statements from the priesthood?

I really am curious about this process.

You're correct, the Bible is not a final authority for us. We will use it, but we will also use pronouncements from "ecumenical" (meaning called by the pope and attended by the bishops) Church Councils, starting with the first one in Nicaea in the fourth century and continuing through Vatican II. There are only two "infallible" papal statements, one from 1854 establishing the Immaculate Conception and one from 1950 establishing the doctrine of the Assumption of Mary. Some people think we "get it all from the Pope" or whatever, but the truth is that ex cathedra statements are actually rare. The pope can't change the Ten Commandments.

 

[Macfistowannabe]

I also have a question - and absolutely no offense is intended by it. Since Catholicism wants priests to remain celebate, I would hate to be a priest. Storing up human hormones for a lifetime without committing sexual sins - I find that humanly impossible. The small tiny percentage of priests who have committed pedophilia, do you think it's because they aren't allowed to marry women (or anybody, really)?

 

[LoveTurns2Rust]

unfortunately, this is why i left catholicism...they rule from the bible, tradition, and ecumenical. my Lord Jesus never mentioned a papal council, etc.

 

[LoveTurns2Rust]

and i also believe priests can be married--- for the celibacy, yes...but also for the life experience of having family and common troubles with which to identify. the Lord never said church leaders should not be married.

 

[verte76]

That's interesting. I did vice versa, I converted from Protestantism to Catholicism. I don't have any trouble accepting the councils and such, if one does then it's time to become a Protestant. This happens frequently, and not without good reason. Reasonable people can disagree over this and agree that the important thing is a personal relationship with Jesus.

 

[LoveTurns2Rust]

That's interesting. I did vice versa, I converted from Protestantism to Catholicism. I don't have any trouble accepting the councils and such, if one does then it's time to become a Protestant. This happens frequently, and not without good reason. Reasonable people can disagree over this and agree that the important thing is a personal relationship with Jesus.

TOTALLY correct. Jesus makes all that stuff just gravy, which is cool, too. I call myself a Christian; that's all. The church I go to calls itself non-denominational.

(cool artwork, by the by)

 

[nbcrusader]

There are only two "infallible" papal statements, one from 1854 establishing the Immaculate Conception and one from 1950 establishing the doctrine of the Assumption of Mary. Some people think we "get it all from the Pope" or whatever, but the truth is that ex cathedra statements are actually rare. The pope can't change the Ten Commandments.

Interesting. What makes these two statements "infallible" compared to other papal declarations? And what prevents a pope from changing the Ten Commandments?

 

[verte76]

Interesting. What makes these two statements "infallible" compared to other papal declarations? And what prevents a pope from changing the Ten Commandments?

The pope is only infallible when he's speaking "ex cathedra", or "from the throne". There have only been two ex cathedra statements in the Church's history, the ones I mentioned. We acknowledge the role in Sacred Tradition of Scripture, and the Pope can't change Scripture, and that certainly includes the Ten Commandments.

 

[nbcrusader]

Is it up to the pope alone when he speaks "ex cathedra" or is there a formal process to go through (such as approval of cardinals)?



Arguable, the two statements mentioned do change Scripture to the extent that it revises the sin nature of Mary as a regular person.

 

[Macfistowannabe]

the important thing is a personal relationship with Jesus.

Certainly. Our differences probably mean little to God, and having a relationship with Jesus is how I keep the faith. Without a relationship with Jesus, I would've given up long ago over something stupid like a bad grade in math class.

 

[verte76]

Is it up to the pope alone when he speaks "ex cathedra" or is there a formal process to go through (such as approval of cardinals)?



Arguable, the two statements mentioned do change Scripture to the extent that it revises the sin nature of Mary as a regular person.

I'll be honest, I can't do justice to these questions. Questions about Mary are the hardest questions for me to answer. There are books that do a great job of explaining this. I hate to "pass the buck" but I never claimed I was an expert on Marian church doctrine. I'm still not. There are whole courses and books on this stuff. It is not simple.

 

[verte76]

Here's a link to an article written by a very learned man about papal authority in general. I sure as heck could never have written this thing.

http://www.catholicculture.org/docs/doc_view.cfm?recnum=2697