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Old 11-14-2004, 10:57 AM   #31
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Old 11-18-2004, 01:41 PM   #32
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Nice thread. I grew up a white, protestant evangelical, married a devout Catholic girl and now I consider myself a non-denominational Christian who finds value and hypocrisy in both. But one things for certain: I'm a 100% proud liberal. It's disgusting how the very word itself has been demonized by the neo-McArtheists on the right.

You were talking about shirts? I've had a shirt with the word "liberal" on it for two years. I made it as a protest against all the hate directed toward liberals.
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Old 11-18-2004, 02:43 PM   #33
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Nice thread. I grew up a white, protestant evangelical, married a devout Catholic girl and now I consider myself a non-denominational Christian who finds value and hypocrisy in both. But one things for certain: I'm a 100% proud liberal. It's disgusting how the very word itself has been demonized by the neo-McArtheists on the right.

You were talking about shirts? I've had a shirt with the word "liberal" on it for two years. I made it as a protest against all the hate directed toward liberals.
Cool! I just might do the same thing. All of this hate is disturbing and frustrating. We might as well have a sense of humor about our own values, beliefs and dreams while we're in the serious business of not selling out.
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Old 11-18-2004, 11:57 PM   #34
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Hey, um, for the past year or so I've been considering becoming Catholic. I grew up in a conservative evangelical households so catholicism was always sorta out there. In the protestant church there is so little reverence to the artistic nature of God. I find deep meaning in symbolism, and I really value many catholic traditions. And, for the past three years I have gone to Christmas Mass at an Abbey (Abby...I'm no good at spelling) in the hills in southern california. All you liberal catholics out there, care to share any advice?
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Old 11-19-2004, 05:38 AM   #35
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Hey, um, for the past year or so I've been considering becoming Catholic. I grew up in a conservative evangelical households so catholicism was always sorta out there. In the protestant church there is so little reverence to the artistic nature of God. I find deep meaning in symbolism, and I really value many catholic traditions. And, for the past three years I have gone to Christmas Mass at an Abbey (Abby...I'm no good at spelling) in the hills in southern california. All you liberal catholics out there, care to share any advice?
There is a process you go through to explore the possibility of becoming a Catholic. It's called RCIA, the Rite of Christian Initiation for Adults. Get in touch with your local diocese, and they'll refer you to to classes at the church closest to you. It's been years since I did it, but I believe that there is an education ministry in each diocese. If that's not the right person to call, they'll refer you to the right person. You can just go to the classes and no one will put any pressure on you. You don't *have* to become Catholic just because you attend the classes. I love the artistic, visual side of Catholicism. I love the liturgical form of worship, the vestments, the processions, the art, the whole thing.
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Old 11-19-2004, 09:23 AM   #36
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The problem with Catholicism is that history has proven many of its doctorines wrong, all of them are nowhere to be found in the bible. The problem with liberalism in the church is that it's inconsistent with scripture. I'm not trying to degrade anyone's faith in God, but I would like to consider myself a Christian before I consider myself a conservative. Reason being, faith should always come before politics, science, and anything of this world.

Any reason why it shouldn't?
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Old 11-19-2004, 10:05 AM   #37
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As a trained historian, I don't really know what you mean by "history" proving Catholic doctrine to be incorrect. In the Catholic faith, scripture is only part of Sacred Tradition, there's also the pronouncements and decrees of the Councils. These are accepted by Catholics. Eastern Orthodox Christians accept the validity of the first eight councils, which are sometimes called the "Christological" councils. The Protestants believe that faith is based strictly on scripture. The fact that some idiot was selling indulgences, which is theologically incorrect practice, doesn't demonize the doctrine of indulgences themselves, which is penance and prayer for the souls in Purgatory, not money as Tetzel wrongly claimed. The Catholic Church used to teach that liberalism and even democracy is contrary to faith, but that was changed at Vatican II. We have both conservatives and liberals in the Catholic Church and there is alot of controversy over liberalism in the Catholic Church. However, they don't excommunicate us.
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Old 11-19-2004, 10:12 AM   #38
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It may have been a long time ago, but Catholics did claim the earth wasn't round. I'm just not comfortable with extra-biblical claims, and to me, things like purgatory are a false doctorine that didn't come from God.
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Old 11-19-2004, 10:29 AM   #39
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It may have been a long time ago, but Catholics did claim the earth wasn't round. I'm just not comfortable with extra-biblical claims, and to me, things like purgatory are a false doctorine that didn't come from God.
Catholics have seven books in our Old Testament that are not found in Protestant Bibles. In one of these books, 2 Maccabees, prayer for the dead is discussed. Needless to say we do believe that this came from God. The notion that the earth isn't round wasn't introduced by the Catholic Church. It was introduced by the Aristotelian school of science, who taught their fair share of nonsense. It was part of medieval secular academic custom not to question traditional authorities. Thus if anyone contradicted Aristotle, they were blasted as wrong. Traditional authorities were *the* authorities for everything right up until the beginning of experimental science and modern philosophers like Descartes, who was a practicing Catholic himself.
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Old 11-19-2004, 10:34 AM   #40
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Originally posted by verte76


Catholics have seven books in our Old Testament that are not found in Protestant Bibles. In one of these books, 2 Maccabees, prayer for the dead is discussed. Needless to say we do believe that this came from God.
I would be interested in reading it. I don't really understand why prayer of the dead is necessary if their eternity has already been determined.
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Old 11-19-2004, 10:42 AM   #41
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The belief is that the dead havn't completely finished their penance for their sins. It's in 2 Maccabees 12:43-46.
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Old 11-19-2004, 10:48 AM   #42
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Originally posted by verte76
The belief is that the dead havn't completely finished their penance for their sins. It's in 2 Maccabees 12:43-46.
Thanks for your answer. In high school, I hung out with a Catholic youth group - even though I'm not Catholic obviously - but many of them had great faith in God. The problem was, when they got into Catholicism, they lost me. I just can't help but think that Catholicism is very complicated.
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Old 11-19-2004, 11:08 AM   #43
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Originally posted by Macfistowannabe
Thanks for your answer. In high school, I hung out with a Catholic youth group - even though I'm not Catholic obviously - but many of them had great faith in God. The problem was, when they got into Catholicism, they lost me. I just can't help but think that Catholicism is very complicated.
If you haven't been through catechism it is complicated. That's why you have to go through catechism to convert, you just can't walk in and say "Hi, I'm Catholic now".
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Old 11-19-2004, 11:23 AM   #44
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I guess not.
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Old 11-19-2004, 01:50 PM   #45
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The problem with Catholicism is that history has proven many of its doctorines wrong, all of them are nowhere to be found in the bible. The problem with liberalism in the church is that it's inconsistent with scripture.
Who teaches you this crap?! You're really beginning to piss me off with your blanket generalisations, offensive comments, and your arrogance. You have at one time or another said something offensive about everyone but white conservative Christians.

Catholics have made mistakes, yes just like protestants. Please take a look at a history in theology before you spout off such drivel.

And please tell me what about liberalism conflicts with scripture that conservativism doesn't.

I don't think Jesus would approve of a captial punishment system.

I don't think he'd approve of tax cuts to the rich.

I don't think he'd approve of pre-imptive wars.

I don't think he'd approve of catering to the pharmaceutical companies why the elderly can't afford help.

Would you like me to go on?

If Jesus came down today, don't kid yourself in thinking he'd be a conservative, because he wouldn't. He also wouldn't be a liberal. But he'd come here and shake up a lot churches and these people who are apparantly speaking for him. And believe me he'd shake up whatever church taught you these extremely close minded beliefs you have.
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