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Old 09-16-2006, 04:49 PM   #91
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Originally posted by Justin24
Dude I have posted the curiculem of that class already which you have read.

That's not what I'm talking about. You cited some bias of allowing Muslims to pray or something.
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Old 09-16-2006, 04:54 PM   #92
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Yes, and you did not post the curriculum, you linked to a story which (inaccurately) described it as involving prayers.

Simulating Communion is probably not the best analogy though, as Islam does not per se have "sacraments" in this manner.
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Old 09-16-2006, 04:58 PM   #93
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Originally posted by 80sU2isBest


They were forced to participate in an Islamic religious practice.
It's in a classroom, it's not a real relgious practice.





Quote:
Originally posted by 80sU2isBest

Even if it were just "education"; it is not the job of public schools to educate people about religions, except for maybe the vey basic of their beliefs.
And what do you think they were doing? Do you honestly think they when in depth with just a few days? And I do think that in days like this, just look at the lies spread about the Muslim religion in here, that the public schools are doing the children a service.

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Originally posted by 80sU2isBest

But it's not just education. If they were simple "educating", they would say "This is what Muslims believe", end of story. This project is endorsement. By forcing the students to participate in the religious practices, and by telling the students "You will be Muslims for the next 3 weeks", they are endorsing the religion of Islam as a "good" thing. Would they force the students to participate if they didn't think Islam is a "good" thing? Of course not.
Oh, please. You've never role played during your education? We dressed as Pilgrims and Native Americans when we learned about Thanksgiving, do you honestly think that was an endorsement of the brutality to which was placed on the Native Americans?
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Old 09-16-2006, 05:00 PM   #94
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Quote:
Originally posted by yolland


Simulating Communion is probably not the best analogy though, as Islam does not per se have "sacraments" in this manner.
True, but my whole point is that simulation is nothing but that, just simulation.
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Old 09-16-2006, 05:26 PM   #95
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So then you would have no objection if Christians did that? I bet the ACLU would.
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Old 09-16-2006, 05:33 PM   #96
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So then you would have no objection if Christians did that? I bet the ACLU would.
If Christians did what?

Muslims didn't teach the class, the teacher did.

Would I have a problem with schools teaching Christianity in a historical context like this, no. My high school did.

But I've already stated all of this.
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Old 09-16-2006, 10:51 PM   #97
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Quote:
Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar


It's in a classroom, it's not a real relgious practice.
Why does it matter where it takes place? A communion can be held anywhere; doesn't make it not a communion.

You still didn't answer my question, BVS. Do you think it would be right to force a Muslim child to take communion, knowing full well that is a religious tradition that honors what Muslims consider a lie?


Quote:
Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar
And what do you think they were doing? Do you honestly think they when in depth with just a few days?
It wasn't "just a few days". It was 3 weeks, which is plenty of time to go in depth. That's 15 hours.

Quote:
Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar
And I do think that in days like this, just look at the lies spread about the Muslim religion in here, that the public schools are doing the children a service.
What lies? Even if someone were spreading lies about Islam, why is a public school, paid for by public tax dollars, the place to lay down what some teacher considers to be the truth about Islam?

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Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar

Oh, please. You've never role played during your education? We dressed as Pilgrims and Native Americans when we learned about Thanksgiving, do you honestly think that was an endorsement of the brutality to which was placed on the Native Americans?
When you dressed as a Pilgrim, did your teacher say "now, pretend you are killing an American Indian? Of course not; what you were told was "sit down and have dinner with the American Indian". Something was being endorsed; it wasn't brutality - it was the peace that existed between Pilgrims and American Indians on Thanksgiving.

When these kids are forced to participate in religious practices, those religious practices are being endorsed (approved of) by the teacher, because like I said, she's not going to have them participate in something she does not approve of.
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Old 09-17-2006, 12:12 AM   #98
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There is a Godless principle that describes not having a government body endorsing a religious viewpoints, it's a pity that it isn't defended and utilised uniformly.
Quote:
look at the lies spread about the Muslim religion in here, that the public schools are doing the children a service.
Which lies would they be exactly?
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Old 09-17-2006, 05:58 AM   #99
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I see a lot of what seems to be purposely ignoring good arguments on the "opposing side" going on here.

I think it's been made pretty clear from the curriculum itself that they are not making kids participate in religious practices such as prayers, religious ceremonies etc, yet many posters continue to ignore this. There's a lot of straw men being set up here, in my opinion.

I also think if we're being honest, 80s point is a good one. If this were a lesson on Christianity, I really do believe there would be a lot more hostile reaction to it by many on this board. I believe BVS even hinted at why that might be in saying that most people in America already have a "basic" knowledge of Christianity and thus such a class would be "unnecessary." I suspect many would feel that teaching a Christianity unit would be an attempt at sneaking in "conversion" into the classroom.

I feel that teaching about religion in public school is absolutely appropriate in a historical and cultural context (and I am a HUGE proponent of church and state seperation). There is a difference between [i]teaching[i] religion and teaching [i]about[i] religion. It should be done thoughtfully and carefully but it can be done.
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Old 09-17-2006, 06:37 AM   #100
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Stepping quietly right back out of the topic...

because nobody is hearing anbody else in here.

Beating a whole lot of dead horses, guys. (And if they weren't dead before you started, they are by now.)
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Old 09-17-2006, 07:15 AM   #101
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Quote:
Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar
After reading some of your posts about Muslims, I can think of quite a few posters who could have benefitted from a high school that taught like this.
I invite atheists, agnostics, and dietists of any kind to challenge the merits of Christianity. So given that principle, why the double standard on Islam? Is it a hate crime to shun the blind assumption that it is truly a religion of peace?
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Old 09-17-2006, 07:28 AM   #102
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Quote:
Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar


It's in a classroom, it's not a real relgious practice.
It could also be considered a golden calf to those who consider their own faith sacred, whether or not it's theological or atheistic.
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Old 09-17-2006, 08:18 AM   #103
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Quote:
Originally posted by Macfistowannabe
I invite atheists, agnostics, and dietists of any kind to challenge the merits of Christianity. So given that principle, why the double standard on Islam? Is it a hate crime to shun the blind assumption that it is truly a religion of peace?
It seems so, we should treat religions equally with no fear or favour.
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Old 09-17-2006, 08:23 AM   #104
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Originally posted by A_Wanderer
It seems so, we should treat religions equally with no fear or favour.
Yes, or, we can judge a religion by its fruit.
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Old 09-17-2006, 10:13 AM   #105
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Quote:
Originally posted by maycocksean
I see a lot of what seems to be purposely ignoring good arguments on the "opposing side" going on here.

I think it's been made pretty clear from the curriculum itself that they are not making kids participate in religious practices such as prayers, religious ceremonies etc, yet many posters continue to ignore this. There's a lot of straw men being set up here, in my opinion.
Let's get this point straight first: This is not just another assignment. The second paragraph begins "you and your classmates will become Muslims". That's how authentic the school wants it to be - so real that they want the students have the mindset of actually being Muslims, not treat it as just another assignment.

The very first sentence of the curriculum calls it a "simulation" of the "history and culture of Islam". Not the "culture of a middle eastern country that may happen to practice a certain religion called Islam", but the "culture of Islam" the religion itself. The phrase "simulation" is repeated in other places. That tells you right there that they will be participating in "unofficial" religious practices. Unofficial or official should make no difference. The school is forcing these students to participate in religious practices.

The students must not only learn the "Five Pillars Of Faith", but imitate a requirement of each pillar. This requires the following: (1) Making a banner with an Islamic confession of faith on it (2) Memorize five Islamic proverbs (3) Give up one hour of lunch. While this physically is not harmful, the fact that it is a mandatory religiously-inspired fasting goes against the "separation of church and school" principle.

They also encourage students to use the phrase "in sha Allah". Allah is a name that opnly Muslims use for God. Christian and Jews do not use the name "Allah" for God.

All of this equals endorsement of Islam. They aren't saying "Islam is better than the rest" but they are certainly giving their approval of Islam. That approval = endorsement.

For the life of me I do not understand how people who would normally support the "separation of church and school" aren't outraged that a religion is studied for 2 to 3 weeks in this manner.
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