ACLU

[melon]

There is quite a bit of evidence that points to the idea that Allah was the Arabian moon god.

Perhaps, but the Judeo-Christian concept of "God" emerged from at least two deities (Yahweh, the Semitic thunder god, mutated with Ahura Mazda, the Zoroastrian of light/goodness), if not three (El, the supreme Semitic god). Judaism, going from its tribal roots, was considerably influenced by the Persian Empire, from which the "Pharisees" were derived.

What's even more interesting is that the Hebrew and Arabic languages are both Semitic, implying that they have a common tribal origin at some point in prehistory.

Quite an interesting subject to study, ultimately.

Melon

 

[maycocksean]

I'm not saying that when you meet a Muslim you should say "your religion is false". However, if you are sharing the Gospel with him/her, it will eventually have to come up, won't it?

Yes and no. I don't know that I would ever have to say, "You know we've been studying together for awhile, and well. . .it's time for me to say it. . .you religion is false." I do think that eventually--in fact fairly early on--we'd have to deal with where the teachings of Islam and Christianity diverge (and there are points where they agree, I believe, at least at the most basic level). But I imagine my approach would be lay out the truth as I understand it as a Christian, as the Bible teaches it, and let the Holy Spirit do the rest. I'm sure there will be those who will see with the Spirit's guidance where Islam is lacking and where Christianity could fill those gaps without me having to rub it in their faces. Let the two stand side by side, and let each person be persuaded in their own mind.

That's wise of them. They can't say that in many of those countries, they would be punished severely, if not executed.

True. But that's not the only reason they wouldn't say that. They wouldn't say that because one of the keys to mission activity is to meet people where they are, to start from what you have in common and move from there. They don't say those words not just to save their own skins, but out of genuine respect for the people they are seeking to reach with the gospel.

On the other hand, another missionary dealing with say people who are using black magic or spells might say in a loving and tactful way--"that's not where the real power is at. Those things are not what are really going to help you."

 

[A_Wanderer]

I'm not saying that when you meet a Muslim you should say "your religion is false". However, if you are sharing the Gospel with him/her, it will eventually have to come up, won't it?

Just because the religion of Islam is false does not make the Islam a false religion.

 

[maycocksean]

Just because the religion of Islam is false does not make the Islam a false religion.

That's an important distinction. Thanks for noting it.

 

[maycocksean]

One of those articles points out that Allah is sometimes used by former Muslims who are now Christians. I have to admit I am very surprised by this. However, I still doubt that many Arabic Christians who have never been Muslim and are not used to using the name would use the name, knowing that YHWH and Allah, while having many historical similarities are very different in a spiritual context.

I don't know any Arabic Christians personally so I can't say with absolute certainty. But, since Allah is an Arabic word, it's not unreasonable to expect that Arabs would use that word in reference to God. Unless there is some other Arabic word (besides the one for Jesus) for the specifically Judeo-Christian God. Again, unless you expect that all Christians would use the English word "God" only.

YHWH is Hebrew word not an Arabic one, and I can't see why Arabic Christians would use that name. It's my understanding that English roughly translates YHWH as LORD. And YHWH and Allah may be different in terms of how they are portrayed and understood in their respective canonical texts, but I believe that both faiths (and Judaism) are worshipping the God of Abraham and Moses. The deity is the same even if the religion is not, much in the same way that Mormons and Christians believe in the same Jesus even if their beliefs about Jesus and Christian history are vastly different.

 

[maycocksean]

I can see that, if you are talking about it in the context of what is going on over there, and what role Islam plays in that conflict. However, there are many things in that curriculum that do not relate to the "current event context", really. For example, consider the exercise in which students are required to participate in the Islamic ritual of fasting, for even just one lunch break; how does that relate to the context you mentioned, how does it teach the children in their understanding of Islam's role in theh conflict or other current events?

I'm not arguing that it's a great curriculum. Yolland has ably pointed out the many flaws in it, and to be frank parts of it sound a little corny to me. Having kids skip lunch is kind of silly since it really does nothing to replicate Ramadan in my opinion, and is hardly distinct from fasting in other faiths.

I'm not defending the curriculum. I AM arguing that public schools can be an appropriate place to teach people ABOUT various religions. Religion is a legtimate part of the human experience (I know, I know, A_Wanderer is saying, "No it's not, no it's not" but neverthless) and shouldn't be ignored.

I think I've made a pretty good argument in a previous post for how this can be done without "indoctrinating" students or dengirating the religion.

 

[melon]

One of those articles points out that Allah is sometimes used by former Muslims who are now Christians. I have to admit I am very surprised by this. However, I still doubt that many Arabic Christians who have never been Muslim and are not used to using the name would use the name, knowing that YHWH and Allah, while having many historical similarities are very different in a spiritual context.

Actually...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allah

Most Arabic-speaking Muslims, Christians and Jews (including the Yemenite Jews, several Mizraḥi communities and some Sephardim) use "Allāh" as the proper noun for "God."

So it sounds like the term is more tied to language than religion.

Secondly, the names "Yahweh" and "Allah" have more in common than we'd like to think. They both have their origin in the Proto-Semitic word, (*ʾilâh-).

Melon

 

[80sU2isBest]

Just because the religion of Islam is false does not make the Islam a false religion.

I don't understand.

 

[80sU2isBest]

IAnd YHWH and Allah may be different in terms of how they are portrayed and understood in their respective canonical texts, but I believe that both faiths (and Judaism) are worshipping the God of Abraham and Moses. The deity is the same even if the religion is not, much in the same way that Mormons and Christians believe in the same Jesus even if their beliefs about Jesus and Christian history are vastly different.

The "icon" or "historical figure" may be the same, but the "persons" of God and Jesus in each religion are very different from each other.

Allow me to illustrate. In a historical context, I may be known as the Greatest Spaghetti Fan Of All Time. Those who know me will know my personality; if I lived my life in a positive manner, they will know it. However. those who don't know me may have heard things and may believe things about me that just aren't true as an essential part of whom they believe me to be. Do those two groups believe in the same person or in the same historical figure?

Christians believe in Jesus as the Son of God, God in the flesh , the Messiah who dies on the cross and was resurrected to redeem man from his sins. Islam believe in Jesus as a prophet who was not the Messiah, and who did not die on the cross and who does not have the power to redeem man from his sins. The Jesus of the Bible and the Jesus of Islam are really very different, especially in the issues that matter the most.

Do the two religions believe in the same "person" or just the same "historical figure"?

 

[80sU2isBest]

Actually...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allah



So it sounds like the term is more tied to language than religion.

Secondly, the names "Yahweh" and "Allah" have more in common than we'd like to think. They both have their origin in the Proto-Semitic word, (*ʾilâh-).

Melon

Well fill my head with cannonballs and powder my behind! I guess we really do learn something new every day. I had no idea abiout all that.

 

[maycocksean]

The "icon" or "historical figure" may be the same, but the "persons" of God and Jesus in each religion are very different from each other.

Allow me to illustrate. In a historical context, I may be known as the Greatest Spaghetti Fan Of All Time. Those who know me will know my personality; if I lived my life in a positive manner, they will know it. However. those who don't know me may have heard things and may believe things about me that just aren't true as an essential part of whom they believe me to be. Do those two groups believe in the same person or in the same historical figure?

Christians believe in Jesus as the Son of God, God in the flesh , the Messiah who dies on the cross and was resurrected to redeem man from his sins. Islam believe in Jesus as a prophet who was not the Messiah, and who did not die on the cross and who does not have the power to redeem man from his sins. The Jesus of the Bible and the Jesus of Islam are really very different, especially in the issues that matter the most.

Do the two religions believe in the same "person" or just the same "historical figure"?

I see what you are getting at. It reminds me of the question Jesus asked His disciples: "Who do you say that I am?" And of Paul writing of those who "preach another Christ." Or where it says "even the devils believe and tremble."

Believing that Jesus existed and believing and accepting who He claimed to be, trusting in Him, are two different things, I concede. I think the issue you're getting at is whether people correctly understand who God and Jesus is.

To be honest, I'm not sure that I would make the comparison between the Jesus of Islam and the Jesus of Christianity. My comparison in my earlier post was between the Jesus of Christianity and Mormonism, not Islam, if you recall. Mormons and Christians believe in the same Jesus, but their beliefs about Jesus and Christian history are vastly different. I don't think I could stretch that comparison to Islam and Christianity.

I do however think you can make that stretch with Islam and Christianity when it comes to God (the Father, in Christian context. Just God, in Muslim context). As mentioned before both religions worship the only Creator God, the God of Abraham. Their understandings of that God may differ, such that you might say that they don't "believe in" the same God, but it's not the same as the difference between worshiping say, Vishnu and God. Those are truly two different gods!

 

[maycocksean]

I don't understand.

I think he means that while Islam may be false (as A_W believes all religions to be), it is still a genuine religion as opposed to fake one. For example, if I were to start a religion of my Living Room Couch in a dishonest attempt to get tax exempt status that would be a false, i.e. fake religion.

Some people thing Scientology is a false religion, in that's really not a religion at all but masquerades as one to avoid paying taxes. Islam certainly does not fall into that questionable category.

It's semantics. Kind of like the word "ashamed"

 

[Macfistowannabe]

I don't understand.

Nor do I, and nor do I understand how some Christians believe Allah to be the Judeo-Christian god. Christians who don't believe in what the Koran has to say should see Allah as no different than Zeus, in my humble opinion.

 

[maycocksean]

Nor do I

Well, I just provided an explanation two posts up.

and nor do I understand how some Christians believe Allah to be the Judeo-Christian god. Christians who don't believe in what the Koran has to say should see Allah as no different than Zeus, in my humble opinion.

Three posts up, this Christian just explained why I believe God is the Judeo-Christian God. (I thought I'd write "Allah" in English rather than Arabic just to make it extra clear. Unless you believe that God is only God in the English language). There have been several other explanations that make it clear as well.

Last I checked Zeus made no promises to Abraham.

 

[Macfistowannabe]

Well, I just provided an explanation two posts up.



Three posts up, this Christian just explained why I believe God is the Judeo-Christian God. (I thought I'd write "Allah" in English rather than Arabic just to make it extra clear. Unless you believe that God is only God in the English language). There have been several other explanations that make it clear as well.

Last I checked Zeus made no promises to Abraham.

Both Muslim and non-Muslim scholars often translate "Allāh" directly into English as "God"; and Arabic-speaking Jews and Christians refer to Allāh as God.

That's interesting, but it doesn't really answer my question. Why would a Christian believe he worships the Islamic god in theological terms? Why doesn't he just convert to Islam?

Islam accepts Jesus as a prophet, but not as the Son of God.

 

[maycocksean]

I don't worship the "Islamic God" anymore than I believe in the "Mormon Jesus Christ".

I worship God. I believe in Jesus Christ who died to save me. Period.

I believe in the One God who created the world, who spoke to Abraham and Moses. Muslims share those beliefs about God as well, though beyond that we go in different directions.

Why must I insist that they worship a different God? Why couldn't I say we worship the same God, but they have misunderstood the truth about Him? Your argument is more likely to be made by Muslims, really since they may believe that we worship three different Gods and are not true monotheists. They could thus surmise that WE are worshiping a different God than that of Abraham.

I suspect we're dealing with an issue of semantics again.

 

[maycocksean]

That's interesting, but it doesn't really answer my question. Why would a Christian believe he worships the Islamic god in theological terms? Why doesn't he just convert to Islam?

Islam accepts Jesus as a prophet, but not as the Son of God.

Why would I convert to Islam when Islam does not offer Jesus as God and Savior?

That does not, however, mean that I believe Muslims are worshipping the theological equivalent of Zeus or Vishnu. They have just not accepted a certain truth about God that I have (i.e. that Jesus is not merely admirable prophet, but the Son of God and our source of salvation).

 

[80sU2isBest]

I think he means that while Islam may be false (as A_W believes all religions to be), it is still a genuine religion as opposed to fake one. For example, if I were to start a religion of my Living Room Couch in a dishonest attempt to get tax exempt status that would be a false, i.e. fake religion.

Some people thing Scientology is a false religion, in that's really not a religion at all but masquerades as one to avoid paying taxes. Islam certainly does not fall into that questionable category.

It's semantics. Kind of like the word "ashamed"

I reda youir reply to my question. I didn't agree that it was a semantical difference, but had decided not to pursue it. However, since you brought it up, I'll be happy to oblige...

The difference between what you originally wrote, "It makes me ashamed to be a Christian" and what you meant, "The behavior of some Christians brings shame upon Christ" is much more than semantics. The two statements are nothing alike.

That being said, I'm glad you didn't mean the former. I've heard/read that statement too many times, and it always upsets me. So finally, I said something about it.

 

[Macfistowannabe]

Why would I convert to Islam when Islam does not offer Jesus as God and Savior?

This is the same reason I wouldn't attend a class and recite Muslim prayers just to show how multi-culti I can be.

Basically, the answer was in the question.

 

[BVS]

This is the same reason I wouldn't attend a class and recite Muslim prayers just to show how multi-culti I can be.

Basically, the answer was in the question.

Well since you haven't read the curriculum or everyone's post, I'll repost what Yolland said:

Originally posted by Yolland

Did you look over the curriculum? It does not involve reciting prayers, in fact it explicitly says twice that you should not do that.

Facts, Facts, Facts! They make all the difference in this world. Use them.

 

[80sU2isBest]

Facts, Facts, Facts! They make all the difference in this world. Use them.

I would be careful when making rude comments like this; the hand that you are using to point at someone else also contains 4 other fingers which could be pointing back at yourself.

 

[BVS]

I would be careful when making rude comments like this; the hand that you are using to point at someone else also contains 4 other fingers which could be pointing back at yourself.

This poster has been called out for lying, making accusations without facts, and ignoring what's written in black and white time and time again. I think he deserves to be called out on it.

 

[80sU2isBest]

This poster has been called out for lying, making accusations without facts, and ignoring what's written in black and white time and time again. I think he deserves to be called out on it.

You've avoided and denied facts when the truth was written down in plain view. So have I, and so has almost everyone at FYM at one point or another.

And come to think of it, that's a good reason for me to watch what I write, also.

 

[BVS]

You've avoided and denied facts when the truth was written down in plain view. So have I, and so has almost everyone at FYM at one point or another.

If you can't honestly see the difference then I'm sorry.

 

[80sU2isBest]

If you can't honestly see the difference then I'm sorry.

You're raking someone over the coals for things that you have done in this very thread.

 

[BVS]

You're raking someone over the coals for things that you have done in this very thread.

I really don't want to get in this here, for we're getting off subject and I've been asked to lay off, but as soon as you see me ignore facts that have been posted over and over, create lies about groups I don't like in order to back my bias without being able to back up those lies, and then turn it around when everyone calls me out on it to make myself the victim; then please point it out to me. Honestly I'm asking you to point these things out to me, but not after the fact, while I'm doing this. Then I'll agree with you and change my posting, but until then please don't ever compare our posts.

 

[80sU2isBest]

I really don't want to get in this here, for we're getting off subject and I've been asked to lay off, but as soon as you see me ignore facts that have been posted over and over, then please point it out to me. Honestly I'm asking you to point these things out to me, but not after the fact, while I'm doing this. Then I'll agree with you and change my posting, but until then please don't ever compare our posts.

I saw you do this during this thread, and I did call you out on it.

But since you asked me to call you out on it, I will - again.

I asked you a question - you ignored that question and answered something I didn't ask you. I reposted my question, and you still never admitted it, even though it was in plain view for everyone to see.

 

[yolland]

I don't really understand what analogy you're trying to make, 80s. You and BVS disagree on whether the components of this curriculum constitute an endorsement of religion, and whether the information imparted by it is important enough to warrant being taught in public schools. Those disagreements stem from matters of opinion. Whether or not the curriculum entails "reciting Muslim prayers," however, is a matter of fact.

 

[80sU2isBest]

I don't really understand what analogy you're trying to make, 80s. You and BVS disagree on whether the components of this curriculum constitute an endorsement of religion, and whether the information imparted by it is important enough to warrant being taught in public schools. Those disagreements stem from matters of opinion. Whether or not the curriculum entails "reciting Muslim prayers," however, is a matter of fact.

Yolland, you're right; you don't understand. This has nothing to do with BVS having a different opinion than mine. It's about a question I asked. BVS not only ignored that question but said I asked something different. Even when I reposted my question, BVS ignored the facts and persisted in avoiding my question.

 

[yolland]

What does that have to do with ignoring facts? Are you talking about the prosperity thing? I think it was clearly implicit in his answer that he didn't consider the desirable aims of education to be limited to skills which enable an individual to make a living, which was the view of education your question entailed. I don't see how that relates to ignoring facts. If I asked you "You really think that American kids doing some unit on Asian history is going to teach them anything they'll need to prosper?" and you replied that the world would be a better place if we all understood more clearly where people not from our own little corner of it are coming from, I would get out of it that we had different ideas about what the proper aims of education are. Not that you were defiantly ignoring my question.