Abuse by Iraq's new Government - U2 Feedback

Go Back   U2 Feedback > Lypton Village > Free Your Mind > Free Your Mind Archive
Click Here to Login
 
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
Old 08-09-2004, 07:00 PM   #1
New Yorker
 
Scarletwine's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Outside it's Amerika
Posts: 2,746
Local Time: 08:58 PM
Abuse by Iraq's new Government

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au...5E2703,00.html

Abuse claims rock Iraqi regime
By AP correspondents in Portland, Oregon
August 09, 2004
IRAQ'S interim Government faces fresh allegations of brutality against its own people after US soldiers reported seeing dozens of prisoners being abused at the Interior Ministry in Baghdad.

The soldiers, members of the Oregon National Guard, reportedly intervened to stop the abuse, but were ordered to back off and return the prisoners to their Iraqi jailers.

The claims were reported yesterday in US newspaper The Oregonian. The paper also published photographs purporting to be of the abused prisoners, including one of a 14-year-old boy.

The incident allegedly occurred on June 29, one day after the US-led coalition in Iraq transferred power to the interim Government headed by Prime Minister Iyad Allawi.

It follows claims that Mr Allawi shot dead six suspected insurgents at an Iraqi police station soon after taking power. Mr Allawi has strenuously rejected the allegation.

The US embassy in Iraq told The Oregonian that the US had raised questions about the June 29 "brutality" with Iraqi Interior Minister Falah al-Naqib.

The embassy would not comment on what response, if any, was received, but said the soldiers "acted professionally and calmly to ease tensions and defend prisoners who needed help".

The Oregonian, which had a reporter embedded with the Oregon guardsmen, said the incident occurred after Iraqi officials announced a crackdown on crime, when police and security forces arrested about 150 people in a Baghdad neighbourhood.

Captain Jarrell Southall gave the newspaper a written account of the incident and other guardsmen, speaking on condition of anonymity, interviewed in Iraq echoed his account, the newspaper said.

On June 29, while the Oregon guardsmen were on patrol, a scout positioned in a tall building looked through the telescopic sight on his rifle into the Interior Ministry courtyard.

He saw a man beating a prisoner with a rod or a stick, took photographs and radioed battalion headquarters to report the abuse.

Battalion commander Lieutenant Colonel Daniel Hendrickson led a group of soldiers to the compound and entered the detention yard unchallenged, according to Captain Southall. The guardsmen then separated the prisoners from the Iraqi policemen.

"Many of these prisoners had bruises and cuts and belt or hose marks all over," Captain Southall said. "I witnessed prisoners who were barely able to walk."

The soldiers freed the prisoners, gave them water and administered first aid. US military police arrived and disarmed the Iraqi policemen, according to Captain Southall.

Colonel Hendrickson led some of the guardsmen into a nearby building and found a room containing "even more prisoners, all in the same sad shape as the prisoners found in the outer area", Captain Southall said. They also found "hoses, broken lamps and chemicals of some variety" that might have been used as torture devices.

But after Colonel Hendrickson radioed for instructions, he was told to return the prisoners to the Iraqi authorities and leave the detention yard. Neither Colonel Hendrickson nor others interviewed by The Oregonian would say who gave the order.

Military police have opened investigations into the suspicious deaths of 48 Iraqis while in the custody of British troops, a jump of almost a third from figures previously disclosed, British newspaper the Independent on Sunday reported yesterday

http://www.oregonlive.com/galleries/...ex=6&g_id=2436

This is disgusting. The sSenate is investigating the incident to try to find out who issued the orders to stand down.
__________________

__________________
Scarletwine is offline  
Old 08-09-2004, 07:28 PM   #2
Blue Crack Addict
 
verte76's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: hoping for changes
Posts: 23,331
Local Time: 01:58 AM
This is pretty damned uncool. I wonder how the investigation will go? Disgusting.........
__________________

__________________
verte76 is offline  
Old 08-09-2004, 07:43 PM   #3
Blue Crack Addict
 
nbcrusader's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Southern California
Posts: 22,071
Local Time: 05:58 PM
I wonder at what point will the Iraqis be able to govern themselves??
__________________
nbcrusader is offline  
Old 08-09-2004, 07:52 PM   #4
New Yorker
 
Scarletwine's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Outside it's Amerika
Posts: 2,746
Local Time: 08:58 PM
I really don't see a Democratic gov't emerging. Now with the Judge Chalabi being charged with murder, and the Temp Pres being outed as a criminal, it looks more and more like Pinochet only supported by active US military.
__________________
Scarletwine is offline  
Old 08-10-2004, 12:36 AM   #5
Rock n' Roll Doggie
FOB
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 8,876
Local Time: 01:58 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by Scarletwine
I really don't see a Democratic gov't emerging. Now with the Judge Chalabi being charged with murder, and the Temp Pres being outed as a criminal, it looks more and more like Pinochet only supported by active US military.
Your basing that opinion on a few reports about a couple of incidents, several of which are probably untrue. Its going to to take years to develop a strong and stable democracy in Iraq and declaring that this is Pinochet supported by the US Military, after the removal of one of the worst dictators in history only 15 months ago, is simply inaccurate. Take a look at the great work that is being done by hundreds of thousands of brave coalition troops and civilian personal as well as hundreds of thousands of brave Iraqi's. They deserve are support as well as reports on their success's which outnumber the one's the media likes to report.
__________________
STING2 is offline  
Old 08-10-2004, 02:38 AM   #6
Resident Photo Buff
Forum Moderator
 
Diemen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: Somewhere in middle America
Posts: 13,238
Local Time: 07:58 PM
So are you saying we should ignore these reports of torture and possible murder/forgery on the part of Iraqi officials, because overall good is being done?

Of course those doing great work deserve support - however, highlighting those abusing their power in no way diminishes that support.

Quote:
several of which are probably untrue
According to whom, might I ask? The fact that these allegations haven't been proven wrong yet is awfully troublesome in my eyes.
__________________
Diemen is offline  
Old 08-10-2004, 04:19 AM   #7
ONE
love, blood, life
 
A_Wanderer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: The Wild West
Posts: 12,518
Local Time: 11:58 AM
They must be investigated and those responsible for abuses held to account, the glorious thing about Iraq today is that there is a free press which is critical of its government, this means that the people will know about these things and will not stand for them. Freedom of Speech and Democracy at work.

Interesting that Diemen disregards the clarifier "probably" in stings statement, when I hear a charge like the Prime Minister personally shot 6 men at a prison in front of Americans but my evidence is unnamed Iraqi sources who cannot give an exact time or date then I would say that it probably isnt true. Do you subscribe to guilty until proven otherwise when it comes to serious charges leveled against a government? I personally think that these matters should be investigated properly before judgement may be reached, as does Stiing who is merely pointing out that many of these claims are very serious but lack substantiating evidence.
__________________
A_Wanderer is offline  
Old 08-10-2004, 06:00 AM   #8
ONE
love, blood, life
 
FizzingWhizzbees's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: the choirgirl hotel
Posts: 12,614
Local Time: 01:58 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by A_Wanderer
They must be investigated and those responsible for abuses held to account, the glorious thing about Iraq today is that there is a free press which is critical of its government, this means that the people will know about these things and will not stand for them. Freedom of Speech and Democracy at work.
Free press? The Iraqi government banned al-Jazeera. Freedom of the press is meaningless if it extends only to those whose editorial policy the government agrees with.
__________________
FizzingWhizzbees is offline  
Old 08-10-2004, 06:09 AM   #9
ONE
love, blood, life
 
A_Wanderer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: The Wild West
Posts: 12,518
Local Time: 11:58 AM
The ban on Al Jazeera is for one month, I personally think that such a ban could be a good thing - by removing the propaganda element of the insurgency violence may be reduced, if violence doesnt go down then reinstate. But look at any Iraqi newsagent and there are hundreds of different newspapers and magazines from all over the world. There are home grown papers that are highly critical of the Government, Iraq is not turning into a police state, it is trying to consolidate power in a government, once the power is in the hands of a state and not the factions many of these more extreme measures will be removed.
__________________
A_Wanderer is offline  
Old 08-10-2004, 07:29 AM   #10
Resident Photo Buff
Forum Moderator
 
Diemen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: Somewhere in middle America
Posts: 13,238
Local Time: 07:58 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by A_Wanderer
They must be investigated and those responsible for abuses held to account, the glorious thing about Iraq today is that there is a free press which is critical of its government, this means that the people will know about these things and will not stand for them. Freedom of Speech and Democracy at work.

Interesting that Diemen disregards the clarifier "probably" in stings statement, when I hear a charge like the Prime Minister personally shot 6 men at a prison in front of Americans but my evidence is unnamed Iraqi sources who cannot give an exact time or date then I would say that it probably isnt true. Do you subscribe to guilty until proven otherwise when it comes to serious charges leveled against a government? I personally think that these matters should be investigated properly before judgement may be reached, as does Stiing who is merely pointing out that many of these claims are very serious but lack substantiating evidence.
I didn't mean to disregard "probably" - rather I meant to highlight it that he disregarded those accusations by simply saying they were "probably untrue." Perhaps my interpretation of his post was wrong, but it seemed like he was glossing over the bad simply because he feels the good needs more attention. Which it does, but glossing over some fairly serious charges (formal charges have been filed against several high-profile Iraqi government officials) to do so isn't right IMO.
__________________
Diemen is offline  
Old 08-10-2004, 07:40 AM   #11
ONE
love, blood, life
 
A_Wanderer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: The Wild West
Posts: 12,518
Local Time: 11:58 AM
I agree with that, the charges against the Chalabi's seem very politically motivated, its unfortunate really that the new legal system in Iraq is being manipulated for political gain but at least its independent and justice will be done. I just hope to see Iraq in 5 years as a country building up without a growing insurgency (this can only happen when US troops are off the streets, its not just a case of them being there - they can be usefull, but having Iraqis do the patrolling of the streets and not having US targets may help, as would a rebuilt Iraqi economy) and most groups engaged in moving forward, the alternatives are too frightening to focus on, there can be no room for error in building Iraq - make or break stuff because if Iraq fails then it will be a power vaacum and the results would echo across the Middle East and dramatically alter the course of the WoT.
__________________
A_Wanderer is offline  
Old 08-10-2004, 09:16 AM   #12
Rock n' Roll Doggie
VIP PASS
 
kobayashi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: the ether
Posts: 5,142
Local Time: 09:58 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by A_Wanderer
The ban on Al Jazeera is for one month, I personally think that such a ban could be a good thing - by removing the propaganda element of the insurgency violence may be reduced, if violence doesnt go down then reinstate. But look at any Iraqi newsagent and there are hundreds of different newspapers and magazines from all over the world. There are home grown papers that are highly critical of the Government, Iraq is not turning into a police state, it is trying to consolidate power in a government, once the power is in the hands of a state and not the factions many of these more extreme measures will be removed.
on what do you base this contention that Al Jazeera is a propagandistic tool of insurgent violence? is the Al Jazeera in question here a regional (Iraq) broadcast or does the outlet only provide one global feed?

if they are inciting violence, then, yes their broadcasts should cease. but if their influence is being inflated, then the ideals of the press and speech have been comprimised.
__________________
im the candyman. and the candyman is back.
kobayashi is offline  
Old 08-10-2004, 09:33 AM   #13
ONE
love, blood, life
 
A_Wanderer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: The Wild West
Posts: 12,518
Local Time: 11:58 AM
Al Jazeera may well be the most progressive broadcaster in the Arab world but thats like saying that your the tallest dwarf, it may sound impressive at first - but it winds up reflecting in a negative manner (not that I have anything against dwarfs).

Terrorism always has a political aim, its propaganda - designed to make people pay attention to the cause. This is the reason terrorism works so welll against totally open societies, we cannot hide an attack and the press will cover it. This is a good thing, however when a broadcaster has direct contacts to the "insurgents" and they run the demands it can put more people in danger, by cutting the propaganda element there is a clear possibility that the frequency of attacks will be reduced. Now I know that this is a global problem and that hostage taking is generally directed at foreign governments and companies but a one month trial to see if there is a drop could be a good thing. There is most certainly a free press in Iraq now and I dont think that will be threatened by the moves against Al Jazeera. As one Iraqi translator put it, you have to be careful in Iraq today, you cannot give the people a freedom overdose, that is what this is about, limiting the freedom to spread the message of the insurgents in exchange for a little security - we will see if it takes, even though a lot of Iraqis can get the sattelite feed.
__________________
A_Wanderer is offline  
Old 08-10-2004, 10:57 AM   #14
Blue Crack Addict
 
verte76's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: hoping for changes
Posts: 23,331
Local Time: 01:58 AM
I don't care how much good is being done, if someone does something wrong, it's wrong. Just because the guy's name isn't Saddam Hussein doesn't justify abusive behavior. I had a feeling this would happen. It's naive to assume that Allawi is some sort of savior.
__________________
verte76 is offline  
Old 08-10-2004, 11:59 AM   #15
Refugee
 
Klaus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: on a one of these small green spots at that blue planet at the end of the milky way
Posts: 2,432
Local Time: 02:58 AM
A_Wanderer

"Banning Bad News in Iraq"
http://www.nytimes.com/2004/08/10/op...10tue3.html?th

Quote:
As interim prime minister, Ayad Allawi is supposed to be guiding Iraq toward democratic elections. Yet in his first six weeks he has begun yielding to the same kind of authoritarian mentality that has stifled democracy in too many neighboring states. His latest target is Al Jazeera, whose sometimes sensational news coverage is the Arab world's principal source of uncensored information. Claiming that Al Jazeera's extensive coverage of terrorist kidnappings and other crimes encourages continuing violence, Mr. Allawi's police shut down the station's Baghdad bureau on Saturday for at least 30 days. The office will be allowed to reopen only if Al Jazeera agrees to change its policies.

Thwarting Al Jazeera's news coverage will not halt the violence that has been tearing Iraq apart for the past 16 months. But it may spare Mr. Allawi the embarrassment of having that violence so visible to a worldwide audience. It may also give his government a freer hand to abuse human rights and pursue personal political vendettas in the name of restoring law and order.

Al Jazeera's professional, provocative and partisan news coverage has no exact parallel in the United States, in part because the journalistic context in which it operates fortunately has no parallel here. Before the station began broadcasting in 1996 with financial support from the emir of Qatar, Arab viewers were largely limited to tame and uninformative state broadcasting outlets. Now tens of millions of people across the Arab world see news that their own governments would prefer to keep quiet.

That has repeatedly gotten Al Jazeera into trouble with authoritarian Arab governments - a precedent that Mr. Allawi should not be so eager to follow. The station has also drawn sharp criticism from Bush administration officials like Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld for its stridently Arab nationalist tone and the graphic details of its Iraq war coverage.

More sensitivity and less stridency on Al Jazeera's part would certainly be welcome. But on the whole, it has been a healthy and crucially important force for change. It often stands almost alone in holding the actions of previously unaccountable governments up to public view and encouraging broader public debate. Mr. Allawi's government is supposed to be pointing the way toward a more democratic Iraq in a more democratic Middle East. By moving against Al Jazeera, it does just the opposite.
__________________

__________________
Klaus is offline  
 

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 08:58 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Design, images and all things inclusive copyright © Interference.com