Abortion

[80sU2isBest]

Does a foetus ever think?

I don't know the answer to that one.

Is that a prerequisite in order for it to be protected?

Does it ever have a realisation of self?

Some say yes, it does begin to develop self-awareness.

But is that a prerequisite in order for it to be protected?

Does it ever exist within society?

If the mother does, the fetus does.

Does it obey the laws and enjoy rights and liberties?

Is that a prerequisite in order for it to be protected?

Let's just go ahead and kill all petty thieves. They don't obey the laws. Heck, you and I should be killed for speeding.

Then, let's round up all the people who live under harsh dictatorships - they don't enjoy rights and liberties.

Is it a human being?

How do you think I'm going to answer that one?

 

[80sU2isBest]

I will not have an abortion because I have absolutely no reason to have one. If I became pregnant and it wasn't planned, I'd say "oh well, we were going to have kids anyway someday" and be very happy because a child is a gift from God.

I'm very glad you wouldn't have an abortion , but that's not what I asked you. I'll ask it again.

"You have said that you believe that abortion is murder. If your belief is true, do you think that abortion should be legal?"

 

[A_Wanderer]

Simply elucidating the issue, for it to be murder the foetus has to be considered a human being. Defining human life is a very subjective affair, if we are shaping policy then it must be done carefully - so the idea of sacred human life or a soul must be left out as those concepts are not based in reality.

Within a society if one violates the rights or liberties of other people then they will be deprived of my liberties in some way; not all petty thieves will be killed (that isn't proportional) but an appropriate punishment is applied; determining the nature of the crime and the punishment can't be done on the basis of gut feeling morality but logic and reason - the no harm principle is much better than any holy tome to those ends.

 

[Liesje]

"You have said that you believe that abortion is murder. If your belief is true, do you think that abortion should be legal?"

As it stands, abortion is not considered murder, so it's not illegal. I don't really know whether I think it's murder or not and if it makes this nonsense go away, then no it's not murder.

 

[Justin24]

Well if Abortion is not murder then executing someone is not murder but a form of punishment.

 

[Liesje]

Well if Abortion is not murder then executing someone is not murder but a form of punishment.

Currently, the gov't and courts agree.

 

[verte76]

This is a little embarrassing. I screwed up big time. I usually don't discuss abortion in public. I was trying to make the case for a secular state and said something I really shouldn't have said. Oops.

 

[redhotswami]

There are a number of valid reasons not enough people adopt, including the possibility that some, as you suggested, take a prolife stance but don't really care about kids when it comes right down to it. But there's so much more that maybe you ahven't even considered; maybe there's not enough people who can afford to adopt a child, or maybe there's too much red tape...the list of possibilities could go on and on and on...

Those are more or less the same reasons why some people end up having abortions.

 

[A_Wanderer]

Well if Abortion is not murder then executing someone is not murder but a form of punishment.

Different' an execution is a punishment for a human being who has violated the rights or liberties of other people, it is the ultimate deprivation of liberty. A foetus is not a human being; does not enjoy those rights or liberties to begin with and is a case of the mother removing a growth from her body.

 

[Justin24]

Please I need a real answer to this? Because it's almost the same thing. Distinguishing life.

DP=wrong and immoral

Abortion=ok because it's a womans choice.

here is a good question. Ok so let's say a woman has sex with a guy and get's pregnant and ends up having an abortion and then continues doing the same thing. What should be done then about her?

 

[BVS]

Here's a question for some of the more fundamental.

I know some in here believe we are born into sin, original sin, that's why we're baptized. So when exactly does this innocence wear off?

 

[Justin24]

Different' an execution is a punishment for a human being who has violated the rights or liberties of other people, it is the ultimate deprivation of liberty. A foetus is not a human being; does not enjoy those rights or liberties to begin with and is a case of the mother removing a growth from her body.

You call this a growth? A baby with ears, eys, a nose, fingers a brain, heart, heart lungs etc... a growth and not human??

 

[Justin24]

????????????????????

 

[BVS]

????????????????????

Did you read it? I'm just reposting since no one answered it.

 

[Justin24]

The way I see it. When we are in the womb it's like the apple from the tree. Once we are born we are then born into sin. But this is just my belife and with many faiths out there, it could be a tall tale from the bible?

 

[anitram]

There are many great men and women who born in unfortunate circumstances who have risen to positively impact the world around them. Those circumstances include orphanages, foster homes, bad parents, poverty, etc.

That's a piss poor argument. For every Einstein that you thank God was born, I can bring up a Hitler or a rapist. It's a complete non-starter of an argument.

And frankly, our courts have begun to recognize wrongful birth and wrongful life claims, so yes you have instances of people actually suing for having been born.

 

[BVS]

The way I see it. When we are in the womb it's like the apple from the tree. Once we are born we are then born into sin. But this is just my belife and with many faiths out there, it could be a tall tale from the bible?

So you're innocent up until you're born, then everything changes?

Interesting

 

[Justin24]

That's a piss poor argument. For every Einstein that you thank God was born, I can bring up a Hitler or a rapist. It's a complete non-starter of an argument.

And frankly, our courts have begun to recognize wrongful birth and wrongful life claims, so yes you have instances of people actually suing for having been born.

Not really, how many more good people are out there compared to evil people?

 

[80sU2isBest]

As it stands, abortion is not considered murder, so it's not illegal. I don't really know whether I think it's murder or not and if it makes this nonsense go away, then no it's not murder.

It's not nonsense. There is indeed a point to it. I wanted to see if you were someone who thinks that murder should be made legal.

But since you think abortion should be legal, I am glad to know that, despite what you originally said, you do not think Abortion is murder.

 

[80sU2isBest]

That's a piss poor argument. For every Einstein that you thank God was born, I can bring up a Hitler or a rapist. It's a complete non-starter of an argument.

No, that's not a piss poor argument, because the truth is that we don't know what kind of person the fetus will grow up to be. In fact, there's a much better chance that he/she will grow up to be a decent productive member of society rather than a Hitler or a rapist.

Are you saying that since there is a chance that the child born in unfortunate circumstances might grow up to be a bad person, that it's a-ok to abort the fetus before it has a chance?

 

[anitram]

Are you saying that since there is a chance that the child born in unfortunate circumstances might grow up to be a bad person, that it's a-ok to abort the fetus before it has a chance?

I don't know where you get these leaps of logic.

I am saying no such thing - I maintain this is a ridiculous, illogical argument to make. Period.

Bottom line: abortion is not murder, because to establish murder, there must have been a death of a human being. A fetus is not a human being and legally is not considered a person, therefore you don't even have a homicide, much less a murder. The end. I don't need photos or development timelines - there are probably few people at FYM who have my science background anyway, so I am perfectly well informed on the subject matter and have made up my mind.

For those wondering whether it's better to be born to an "unfortunate life" or whatever it is you termed it - well as I said, go look into wrongful life claims and perhaps you'd be surprised at how many there are.

 

[Liesje]

But since you think abortion should be legal, I am glad to know that, despite what you originally said, you do not think Abortion is murder.

I don't know whether I think it's murder or not b/c that depends on whether the embryo being aborted is considered a person or not. I'm not an embryologist or any sort of biologist, so I won't say one way or the other until I've made more of an effort to inform myself.

You asked me to look past the legal aspect, but I can't b/c "murder" is a legal term and I've always treated it as such. You're asking me if I think abortion should be legal, yet also asking me to throw out the fact that I look at this issue from a legal perspective so I'm sorry if I can't make you understand, but I think I've been about as clear as can be. At present, the courts have not ruled that an embryo is a murder-able human being, so I suppose that means abortion is not murder.

All that matters to me is that I won't ever do it, and quite frankly my reasons are really no one's business but mine and my husband's.

 

[Justin24]

I don't know where you get these leaps of logic.

I am saying no such thing - I maintain this is a ridiculous, illogical argument to make. Period.

Bottom line: abortion is not murder, because to establish murder, there must have been a death of a human being. A fetus is not a human being and legally is not considered a person, therefore you don't even have a homicide, much less a murder. The end. I don't need photos or development timelines - there are probably few people at FYM who have my science background anyway, so I am perfectly well informed on the subject matter and have made up my mind.

For those wondering whether it's better to be born to an "unfortunate life" or whatever it is you termed it - well as I said, go look into wrongful life claims and perhaps you'd be surprised at how many there are.

Did you see the picture I posted? Looks to be human. Has hands, feet, a nose, mouth, eyes, ears and more. Oh that's right it's a growth. So how about we redifine it our all books as a growth not know to be human until it comes out a vagina.

And if any of you are offended sorry.

 

[financeguy]

Bottom line: abortion is not murder, because to establish murder, there must have been a death of a human being. A fetus is not a human being and legally is not considered a person, therefore you don't even have a homicide, much less a murder. The end.

I'm sure we can always appeal to narrow legalism to defend practically any point of view.

Moral societies view abortion as a crime - it really is that simple.

 

[randhail]

I don't need photos or development timelines - there are probably few people at FYM who have my science background anyway, so I am perfectly well informed on the subject matter and have made up my mind.

Pat yourself on the back much?

 

[anitram]

I'm sure we can always appeal to narrow legalism to defend practically any point of view.

This is not narrow legalism, it is a matter of correct statutory interpretation in Canada. A fetus is not a person under our Constitution - you are free to argue that the Constitution is incorrect, take it up with our Parliament and the Supreme Court. And good luck.

Moral societies view abortion as a crime - it really is that simple.

It is neither simple nor factual. It's called an opinion.

 

[Justin24]

 

[anitram]

Pat yourself on the back much?

Aren't you clever?

If you have experience in this field and have studied enough to come to an educated conclusion, what's wrong with that? It is at least based on what information which you've digested and evaluated and come to feel a certain way about. If you, as an MD or PhD or whatever come to the opposite conclusion, I can respect that a hell of a lot more than "hey it looks like a cute baby, so it must be human!"

 

[Justin24]

The end. I don't need photos or development timelines - there are probably few people at FYM who have my science background anyway, so I am perfectly well informed on the subject matter and have made up my mind.

What's the meaning of life?

 

[yolland]

Moral societies view abortion as a crime

What is a 'moral society'?