Abortion - Page 25 - U2 Feedback

Go Back   U2 Feedback > Lypton Village > Free Your Mind > Free Your Mind Archive
Click Here to Login
 
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
Old 02-15-2007, 04:44 PM   #361
Rock n' Roll Doggie
VIP PASS
 
CTU2fan's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 5,366
Local Time: 09:28 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by yolland

No one's going to think that, and most everyone in the thread is likely feeling some amount of the same thing. It's so hard to come to terms with the reality that people just do approach and perceive this issue incredibly differently, and that the reasons for that are way more complex and intractable than anyone's 'stupidity' or 'blindness' or whatever word seems to fit the emotional shoe at the time. But you do have to come terms with it nonetheless, and part of that is recognizing that it's unreasonable to make whoever you're debating with at the moment bear the full brunt of your frustrations with things society in general is deeply divided over, for very complicated reasons. It sounds like you understand that very well.
Thanks Yolland, appreciate it.

You know, I left to pick up my kids from school (they're walkers, but IMO 1.5 miles is a bit far for a 5 year old to walk alone) and I was thinking - for some reason I think best while walking. Anyway, I was thinking about this topic, and about women I know & have known who've made the choice (to abort). Anyway, I realized I might not be as pro-life as I thought. You'd think I'd be more angry about it, but I never have been. It makes me sad, but mostly because I think it sucks that we live in a world where women's options are so poor that the best one in their eyes is to abort. I just think some people assume than many/most women are almost cavalier about it, and I can't imagine that's the case.

Yes, in a world where abortion were illegal you'd have fewer abortions. Rich folks could still get them, by travelling to countries where they were still legal (I believe that went on pre-Roe v. Wade). You'd still have the old back-alley butchers silcing women up & killing god knows how many women & girls in the process.

It just comes back to economics for me I guess. The women I know who've aborted did it basically for financial reasons. I guess the more I consider it I'm less "pro-life" and more "pro-choice/anti-abortion", and it seems like that's a pretty common view. Maybe rather than trying to ban abortions I'd rather see the government try to create an environment where abortion isn't seen by many women as the best or only choice.
__________________

__________________
CTU2fan is offline  
Old 02-15-2007, 05:07 PM   #362
Acrobat
 
BorderGirl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Under A Blood Red Texas Sky
Posts: 418
Local Time: 08:28 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by CTU2fan

Maybe rather than trying to ban abortions I'd rather see the government try to create an environment where abortion isn't seen by many women as the best or only choice.
Why wait?
I think we need to be reminded that "we are" the government......"we" are the ones responsible for the climate we create and live in.
The only thing that changes laws is our change of heart.....
I've often wondered if the decision to abort a baby, or a a fetus, or however you see 'it', would be any different if babies grew on the outside of the womb, visible to our own eyes......or is it the distance created by darkness that allows us to not acknowledge/see a small life surely developing?
Would this change in biology 'change' anyone's perspective?
__________________

__________________
BorderGirl is offline  
Old 02-15-2007, 05:15 PM   #363
Rock n' Roll Doggie
Band-aid
 
80sU2isBest's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Posts: 4,970
Local Time: 08:28 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by BorderGirl


Why wait?
I think we need to be reminded that "we are" the government......"we" are the ones responsible for the climate we create and live in.
The only thing that changes laws is our change of heart.....
I've often wondered if the decision to abort a baby, or a a fetus, or however you see 'it', would be any different if babies grew on the outside of the womb, visible to our own eyes......or is it the distance created by darkness that allows us to not acknowledge/see a small life surely developing?
Would this change in biology 'change' anyone's perspective?
Very good points.
__________________
80sU2isBest is offline  
Old 02-15-2007, 05:19 PM   #364
ONE
love, blood, life
 
financeguy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Ireland
Posts: 10,122
Local Time: 02:28 PM
Of course, those of us who are against abortion have a moral responsibilty to advocate contraception and sex education.

I fully approve of government subsidies for both the above.

In my opinion, those on the extreme right who want to curtail sex education and ban or restrict contraceptives are just as wrongheaded as those on the extreme left who demand no restrictions whatsover on abortion 'rights'.

It occurs to me that the Vatican's criminal stupidity in banning contraceptives for its flock might actually be one of the factors driving abortion rates upwards!
__________________
financeguy is offline  
Old 02-15-2007, 06:00 PM   #365
Acrobat
 
BorderGirl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Under A Blood Red Texas Sky
Posts: 418
Local Time: 08:28 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by financeguy
It occurs to me that the Vatican's criminal stupidity in banning contraceptives for its flock might actually be one of the factors driving abortion rates upwards!
The part of the flock that's "choosing" to adhere/live with these Catholic teachings are not having abortions, otherwise they'd be contracepting in the first place.
__________________
BorderGirl is offline  
Old 02-15-2007, 06:29 PM   #366
Forum Moderator
 
yolland's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 7,471
Local Time: 02:28 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by BorderGirl
I've often wondered if the decision to abort a baby, or a a fetus, or however you see 'it', would be any different if babies grew on the outside of the womb, visible to our own eyes......or is it the distance created by darkness that allows us to not acknowledge/see a small life surely developing? Would this change in biology 'change' anyone's perspective?
If women's bodies worked that way it'd be a largely moot point I think, because then a woman would be able to see instantaneously when (or even before) an unintended conception had occurred and avail herself of emergency contraception right away--it's not like anyone looks forward to having an abortion and deliberately gets pregnant just to do it.
__________________
yolland [at] interference.com


μελετώ αποτυγχάνειν. -- Διογένης της Σινώπης
yolland is offline  
Old 02-15-2007, 10:54 PM   #367
Blue Crack Supplier
 
Irvine511's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 30,483
Local Time: 08:28 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by yolland

--it's not like anyone looks forward to having an abortion and deliberately gets pregnant just to do it.


but many anti-abortion forces predicate themselves upon this assumption.

it reminds me of a Sarah Silverman joke on SNL. she was speaking about the new 3 day waiting period to get an abortion and she thought this was a really good idea, "because last Friday, i totally wanted an abortion, but i couldn't get one, and that was good because it turned out that i was jut really thirsty."

i remain agnostic as to the morality of abortion -- it's not something i can decide, so far be it from me to tell anyone else what to do. i think the praticality of the legality of abortion is pretty sound and society is better off for it.

i suppose what ticks me off a little are the assumptions that women get abortions without much of a 2nd thought. women agonize over these things. no woman is 6 months pregnant and walks by a Planned Parenthood clinic and stops and says, "damn! there's been something i've been meaning to do!" it's more than a little insulting to think that every woman who chooses to have an abortion regards a fetus as little more than a blob of tissue. so a little respect, on both sides, is needed, i think.

ultimately, no one wants to have an abortion. no one wants there to be abortion. but abortion just might prevent further tragedies later on i the lives of women and children. let's work on empowering women to determine when they do and do not get pregnant, as moral an issue as anything else, and then we'll talk about the morality of abortion.
__________________
Irvine511 is offline  
Old 02-16-2007, 02:55 AM   #368
Rock n' Roll Doggie
Band-aid
 
maycocksean's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: The Most Important State in the Union
Posts: 4,882
Local Time: 08:28 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by yolland
I can understand the frustrations experienced by some of the pro-choice people in this thread. Too often discussions on abortion, whether online or "real"-world, are dominated by men even if women are nominally present, and that can be very alienating to women--particuarly when the entire thrust of the rhetoric is baby, baby, baby, as if the person it inhabits and lives off of were an inanimate husk or machine with no moral autonomy or right to control one's destiny of her own, and it's a bit too easy to overlook or dismiss the possible range of physical, psychological, social and economic consequences of forcing her to carry a child against her will. The religious issue is neither here nor there, I think; on the one hand the reality is that religious perspectives do influence how people vote whether anyone likes it or not, on the other hand scripture isn't an acceptable source for legislation in a secular country. Anyhow, above and beyond my religious reasons for not seeing abortion as murder, I also simply believe it is wrong for anyone to force women to bear children. With the capacity to carry and nurture a uniquely dependent form of life comes the moral authority to decide how to manage it, in my view.

I don't personally find that women's reasoning on this topic, from whatever side, usually differs much from that of men; however, many women can appeal to personal experience with pregnancy (whether completed or not), or even just the situation of being able to be made pregnant, and in that sense there certainly is a "different stake" in it.
Excellent, excellent points. It's really given me some new perspectives on the issue.

I suppose I understand Martha's caustic posts on this topic. I recognize that those who will never be directly affected by the issue find it easier to remain unemotional and approach the matter with the disinterested "furrowed brow." I also realize that the so-called distance from the issue doesn't automatically lead to greater insights into the issue either, and in fact being unable to relate to the painful realities of the issue can be handicap rather than a strength. I guess we all have our issues where it's hard to bear those who will never know what it feels like start pontificating. I know I get that way when it comes to issues of race.
__________________
maycocksean is offline  
Old 02-16-2007, 03:08 AM   #369
Rock n' Roll Doggie
Band-aid
 
80sU2isBest's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Posts: 4,970
Local Time: 08:28 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511


but many anti-abortion forces predicate themselves upon this assumption.
Irvine, you don't really believe that, do you?

There's not a person alive who thinks or syas that anyone looks forward to having an abortion and deliberately gets pregnant just to do it.
__________________
80sU2isBest is offline  
Old 02-16-2007, 03:09 AM   #370
Rock n' Roll Doggie
Band-aid
 
maycocksean's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: The Most Important State in the Union
Posts: 4,882
Local Time: 08:28 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by 80sU2isBest


I am very sorry to hear about your mother's situation. I truly am.
Thanks for your kind words. To be honest, I was a little nervous about the response. I couldn't bear the thought of my mother being savaged on this thread.

Quote:
Originally posted by 80sU2isBest

I am curious about something about Francine Rivers. Did her book make the point that women who have an abortion are damaged forever, or did she allow for God's forgiveness and healing, which would retsore the women?
She did allow for God's forgiveness and healing and some of the characters did experience that, ONCE they acknowledged their "sin."

To be honest, my issues with that book were more literary than anything else. I really felt she let the issue, the "message" overtake the need for believable characters and plausible plotline. The story is of a girl who is raped and after much struggle decides to keep the baby. You can read more about the book and my thoughts on it at www.maycockmediamix.blogspot.com. Rivers is normally an excellent writer though. . .Her Mark of the Lion trilogy is amazing, especially the first two books.

Quote:
Originally posted by 80sU2isBest

Secondly, I am curious about your mother's response. Did she say she never regretted or was always at peace? Could it be that she has experienced God's forgiveness and healing, and that is why she feels at peace? I'm not making any arguments either way, I am just very curious as to what you think she would answer to those questions.
As far as I recall her saying, she never had any regrets. I'd asked her in the context of this book I read, and I think if she had had regrets earlier she would have said something like "Well, I felt really horrible about it for years, but then I gave it over to God and now I'm fine." What I didn't get the sense from her was that this was a "mistake" or a "sin" that she might have done differently if she could have done over again, but that she felt she's been "forgiven" for. If anything, I think if she had it to do over again she wouldn't have married my dad! But in the context of her situation at the time, she believed and continues to believe that she did what she had to do.
__________________
maycocksean is offline  
Old 02-16-2007, 03:12 AM   #371
Rock n' Roll Doggie
Band-aid
 
maycocksean's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: The Most Important State in the Union
Posts: 4,882
Local Time: 08:28 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by 80sU2isBest


Irvine, you don't really believe that, do you?

There's not a person alive who thinks or syas that anyone looks forward to having an abortion and deliberately gets pregnant just to do it.
Wow, you're up early! (or late, depending on your time zone, I guess)

I don't know that anti-abortion folks actually believes this way but in the overheated climate of this issue, it might sound that way.

Not to speak for Irvine or anything. . .
__________________
maycocksean is offline  
Old 02-16-2007, 03:15 AM   #372
Rock n' Roll Doggie
Band-aid
 
80sU2isBest's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Posts: 4,970
Local Time: 08:28 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by maycocksean
I suppose I understand Martha's caustic posts on this topic.
You understand the personal insults she hurled at prolifers and accusing me of having no compassion for rape victims?
__________________
80sU2isBest is offline  
Old 02-16-2007, 03:18 AM   #373
Rock n' Roll Doggie
Band-aid
 
80sU2isBest's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Posts: 4,970
Local Time: 08:28 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by maycocksean


Wow, you're up early! (or late, depending on your time zone, I guess)
I've been working late; client wants something by tomorrow afternoon that I just started working on at 8 pm.

Quote:
Originally posted by maycocksean

I don't know that anti-abortion folks actually believes this way but in the overheated climate of this issue, it might sound that way.
I have never heard anything from anyone anywhere that would lead me to believe that he/she thinks that people get pregnant so that they can have an abortion.
__________________
80sU2isBest is offline  
Old 02-16-2007, 03:21 AM   #374
Rock n' Roll Doggie
Band-aid
 
80sU2isBest's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Posts: 4,970
Local Time: 08:28 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by maycocksean


Thanks for your kind words. To be honest, I was a little nervous about the response. I couldn't bear the thought of my mother being savaged on this thread.
I don't know why you'd worry about that from me. I've never savaged anyone, at least no one here.
__________________
80sU2isBest is offline  
Old 02-16-2007, 03:28 AM   #375
Rock n' Roll Doggie
Band-aid
 
maycocksean's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: The Most Important State in the Union
Posts: 4,882
Local Time: 08:28 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by 80sU2isBest


I don't know why you'd worry about that from me. I've never savaged anyone.
I wasn't worried about you per se. You've always managed to maintain a graceful tone (which I know doesn't always get acknowledged since you're often taking stances that about drive people apopolectic )

It was just a more general fear that SOMEONE would launch into a "what a horrible, souless woman she is" or something. It was hard enough for me to post about her and I debated doing at all, because I didn't want to disrespect her privacy. But then I figured, it's the internet, and none of us really knows any of us anyway, so I guess it would be okay. And I felt like it would contribute something to the discussion (particularly the back and forth between you and I) and that my mom would support that.
__________________

__________________
maycocksean is offline  
 

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 08:28 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Design, images and all things inclusive copyright © Interference.com