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Old 02-15-2007, 02:43 AM   #316
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Originally posted by dazzlingamy
but do you see that for countless - we really could care less what it says in the bible or whatever - it means nothing utterly devoid of meaning and because i live in a state where church and state is seperated (oh thank allah for that!) i don't think anything pulled out of a book - that only a few place precident in should be used to make or unmake a law in the land.

"god" has nothing to do with my body and therefore should have no say in such a general weirdy twisty way from reading some passage in a book, over my body.

Done and done.
Of course. That's a given. But I'm not discussing this with countless numbers of people per se or putting a general post out there. I'm responding to specific issues raised by a specific poster for whom the Bible is very much relevant to their stance on the issues.

You might think we are stupid to take the Bible into account in our decision making process, and that's your right, but I'm sure you can at least respect that for us, at least, it's important. You can skip over our posts and continue on to those with a strictly secular approach. After all, I don't imagine your suggesting that religious issues can't be brought to bear in the discussion just because not all participants in the discussion are religious.

Just to be clear, I'm NOT advocating that religion be a deciding factor in how this is or isn't legislated. I'm definitely against that. But on a personal level I think it can be an appropriate element of the argument.
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Old 02-15-2007, 03:26 AM   #317
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Originally posted by 80sU2isBest
However, I do have a question. Could it be that "an eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth, etc.) is presented here as saying that the penalty should assess the concept of "eye for an eye" (equal payback), not the literal taking of an eye, tooth, etc.?
I suppose you could argue it could, although the other verses employing that construction don't include the 'etc.' bits Exodus 25 does, so you'd then have to account for why this one particular verse throws them in. As a footnote--and you may well already know this, but I find it's a common misconception--Jewish law does not take that principle literally, except in the case of capital punishment for murder. In the Oral Law (Torah sh'bal'peh--the detailed form of the written Torah's legal sections, which analogous to arrangements in other Ancient Near Eastern cultures, was transmitted orally to priests/rabbis until the second century, when diaspora conditions made this unfeasible; at which point it was written down and became the core of the Talmud) it's explained that it means monetary compensation approximating the value of the body part lost or maimed--eye, tooth, disablingly burnt or scarred limb, etc. When Jesus refers to it he seems to be warning against using the principle to justify personal retribution, suggesting that perhaps some people had taken to using it to justify plain old revenge--which contradicts the law against that laid down by Leviticus 19:18 of course, but that's all too easy a maxim to rationalize one's way out of, so it wouldn't be surprising if that was common.
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The Talmud may not, but in the Old Testament, the life within the womb is never spoken of as a "fetus". It is always referred to as a person, using terms like "child", etc.
Oh, the Talmud doesn't per se have any terms meaning 'fetus' either--Ancient Hebrew didn't have specific terms for life in utero, period. Generally the term used for 'child' in the sense of 'with child' is yeled, yalid or some other derivative of yalad, which as mentioned above is the Hebrew phrase used for 'to give birth.' That's a root verb which is used to refer to anything from calving to eggs hatching to childbirth, or, in its derivative forms, anything from beings in utero to 'children' (the kind that run around yelling) to 'descendants.' It doesn't intrinsically entail 'personhood' in the way 'child' does--the context supplies that--but rather the sense of 'that which was begotten'. The best English equivalent for it, I guess, would be something like 'progeny' or 'issue,' but that'd just sound silly in many situations where yalad/yeled/etc. are used. Anyway, I *think* that's the term that Talmud passage used; unfortunately I don't have my CD-ROM Talmud on me at the moment or I'd check.

There are a few other terms which could be aptly translated 'child', uhl and a couple related words which etymologically convey 'suckling' (as in one who nurses), as well as some specific words for male or female children which generally carry the sense of 'heir,' but I can't think of a situation where these are used to describe beings in utero.

Anyways, I'm not trying to assign a Definitive Interpretation to the Exodus passage or anything; I'm certainly not qualified to do that, and as I've said before, obviously it's not for me to tell a Christian what kind of interpretation of whatever "OT" passage his or her personal understanding and experience of God ought to yield. Just wanted to clarify some aspects of the traditional Jewish view on that passage.
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Old 02-15-2007, 08:16 AM   #318
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It took seven pages before Jesus was brought up! Congratulations! I think that's a new FYM record.

I'm loving all these boys with furrowed brows maybe not thinking an abortion is such a good thing.

Like they'll ever ever ever have to actually deal with the sitch.

Shall we post videos of actual women leading their actual lives? Or would that interfere with these boys' ideals of abortion somehow not being linked to actual, real, living, breathing women?

I swore to myself I wouldn't get involved in another idiotic "abortion is wrong because I say so" thread, but lately I've been less than patient with people who want to tell me what to do when they have no authority whatsoever to do so.
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Old 02-15-2007, 08:45 AM   #319
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^ Not speaking for anyone else in here but my views on abortion wouldn't change a bit even if roles were reversed and men were the ones carrying & bearing children. Not sure that's true for the majority of pro-lifers, based on their positions on other issues, but it is for me.

That's why the point Sean touched on a page or 2 ago is so tough for me. While I oppose abortion, in the "real" world where it's legal I also oppose men being given a legal say over a woman's decision to abort (or not to abort). It's a difficult scenario for me though - but basically my thought is if we're going to allow them the decision should lie with the mother.

That said, personally, if a partner of mine went against my wishes & tried to abort my child I'm not sure how I'd handle it...I'd probably end up in jail for kidnapping or something.
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Old 02-15-2007, 09:13 AM   #320
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Originally posted by 80sU2isBest

Now what will happen to me - will it now be said that I minimalize rape, that I don't have compassion for rape victims?
Yes, it will. You "value" a zygote more than a woman. So you'll have to live with it. I'm sure you'll find a Bible verse to make you feel better.
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Old 02-15-2007, 09:14 AM   #321
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That said, personally, if a partner of mine went against my wishes & tried to abort my child I'm not sure how I'd handle it...I'd probably end up in jail for kidnapping or something.
Lots of men think this is a legitimate solution to a disobedient woman. You'll have plenty of company in that jail.
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Old 02-15-2007, 10:56 AM   #322
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Originally posted by martha


Yes, it will. You "value" a zygote more than a woman. So you'll have to live with it. I'm sure you'll find a Bible verse to make you feel better.
I was almost sure I could count on someone. Thanks for fulfilling my prophecy.
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Old 02-15-2007, 11:02 AM   #323
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Quote:
Originally posted by martha


Yes, it will. You "value" a zygote more than a woman. So you'll have to live with it. I'm sure you'll find a Bible verse to make you feel better.
We are made kind by being kind.
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Old 02-15-2007, 11:05 AM   #324
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We are made kind by being kind.
What does this have to do with anything?
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Old 02-15-2007, 11:06 AM   #325
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Originally posted by 80sU2isBest
I was almost sure I could count on someone. Thanks for fulfilling my prophecy.
Someone had to step up to the plate and call you on it. Someday you'll take full responsibility for your 16th century views.
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Old 02-15-2007, 11:06 AM   #326
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Quote:
Originally posted by martha
It took seven pages before Jesus was brought up! Congratulations! I think that's a new FYM record.

I'm loving all these boys with furrowed brows maybe not thinking an abortion is such a good thing.

Like they'll ever ever ever have to actually deal with the sitch.

Shall we post videos of actual women leading their actual lives? Or would that interfere with these boys' ideals of abortion somehow not being linked to actual, real, living, breathing women?

I swore to myself I wouldn't get involved in another idiotic "abortion is wrong because I say so" thread, but lately I've been less than patient with people who want to tell me what to do when they have no authority whatsoever to do so.
Boys? I'm 40 years old. What makes you think that none of who oppose abortion have ever faced the situation of having an unplanned child on the way?

My mother (who had 6 children), my 2 sisters (who had 2 chidren each including a boy with cerebral palsy), my 2 neices, my two married female friends (who also have two children apiece) and my single female friend all oppose abortion and wish it were illegal. Are you going to call them "boys"?

You should have kept your oath to yourself and not participated in this thread. Take your rude and classless comments somewhere else, lady.
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Old 02-15-2007, 11:07 AM   #327
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Originally posted by martha


Someone had to step up to the plate and call you on it. Someday you'll take full responsibility for your 16th century views.
Hardly. I'm right.
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Old 02-15-2007, 11:13 AM   #328
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Originally posted by 80sU2isBest
Boys? I'm 40 years old. What makes you think that none of who oppose abortion have ever faced the situation of having an unplanned child on the way?
Women have a whole different stake in the issue. I'll consider what they say in a different light. Men have no say. Period.


Quote:
Originally posted by 80sU2isBest
My mother (who had 6 children), my 2 sisters (who had 2 chidren each including a boy with cerebral palsy), my 2 neices, my two married female friends (who also have two children apiece) and my single female friend all oppose abortion and wish it were illegal. Are you going to call them "boys"?
No. See above.

Quote:
Originally posted by 80sU2isBest
You should have kept your oath to yourself and not participated in this thread. Take your rude and classless comments somewhere else, lady.
Again with the whole "class" thing. You started this thread to get a rise out of people. Everyone here knows how you feel about this issue, yet you somehow think every few months you need some attention. So you start a thread letting us all know that you feel like you need a say in my medical procedures. Then you get all bent out of shape when you get called on it. Where's your "class"?
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Old 02-15-2007, 11:14 AM   #329
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Hardly. I'm right.
And so am I.
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Old 02-15-2007, 11:17 AM   #330
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Originally posted by martha


Again with the whole "class" thing. You started this thread to get a rise out of people. Everyone here knows how you feel about this issue, yet you somehow think every few months you need some attention. So you start a thread letting us all know that you feel like you need a say in my medical procedures. Then you get all bent out of shape when you get called on it. Where's your "class"?
I didn't start this thread, Martha. In a different thread, I simply replied to something someone else said on the subject, and since it was off-topic, it was made into a separate thread.

Every few months I need attention? What do you mean? I hardly ever start threads, and don't get into nearly the amount of discussion I used to.
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