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Old 02-13-2007, 07:45 PM   #241
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Quote:
Originally posted by Justin24


Did you see the picture I posted? Looks to be human. Has hands, feet, a nose, mouth, eyes, ears and more.
So does a mannequin...
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Old 02-13-2007, 07:46 PM   #242
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Originally posted by anitram
This is not narrow legalism, it is a matter of correct statutory interpretation in Canada. A fetus is not a person under our Constitution - you are free to argue that the Constitution is incorrect, take it up with our Parliament and the Supreme Court. And good luck.
Not relevant. We are dealing with issues of natural law here.
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Old 02-13-2007, 07:46 PM   #243
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Quote:
Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar


So does a mannequin...
Mannequins can't reproduce.
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Old 02-13-2007, 07:47 PM   #244
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Originally posted by financeguy



Moral societies view abortion as a crime - it really is that simple.
Wow your posts as of late.

Self righteous much?
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Old 02-13-2007, 07:49 PM   #245
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Quote:
Originally posted by Justin24


Mannequins can't reproduce.
Can you ever answer a post in context? Your only qualifier is that it looked human.

Answer in context to what you originally said or just don't post.
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Old 02-13-2007, 07:50 PM   #246
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Quote:
Originally posted by yolland
What is a 'moral society'?

A society which views abortion as a crime, is probably, inter alia, a moral society.
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Old 02-13-2007, 07:50 PM   #247
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The photos I posted is of a real child, not some mannequine. So why even bring that up? I have said other things, have you read that?
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Old 02-13-2007, 08:02 PM   #248
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Quote:
Originally posted by Liesje
At present, the courts have not ruled that an embryo is a murder-able human being, so I suppose that means abortion is not murder.
Maybe not, but here is a nuance from a South Carolina court. Not sure how I feel about it just yet, but the whole article is worth reading:

http://www.thenation.com/doc/20040426/pollitt

"Now for the moment those slippery slope arguments have been set aside, and we are back with what is becoming an American tradition: arresting poor women for illegal drug use during pregnancy. For the past eight years, South Carolina has been charging women, mostly poor and black, with child abuse if they deliver babies who test positive for illegal drugs; the Supreme Court recently refused to hear the appeal of Regina McKnight, who is serving twelve years in maximum security for "homicide by child abuse" after delivering a stillborn baby who tested positive for cocaine. If you think what happens to a poor black drug user with an IQ of 72 doesn't apply to you, think again: In its 1997 decision in Cornelia Witner v. State of South Carolina, the state Supreme Court decreed that anything a pregnant woman does after viability that causes "potential harm" to the fetus is child abuse--anything."
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Old 02-13-2007, 08:06 PM   #249
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Quote:
Originally posted by Justin24
The photos I posted is of a real child, not some mannequine. So why even bring that up? I have said other things, have you read that?
i was purely showing you the weakness of THAT statement.

Sorry you couldn't see that.
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Old 02-13-2007, 08:08 PM   #250
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Quote:
Originally posted by anitram


Bottom line: abortion is not murder, because to establish murder, there must have been a death of a human being. A fetus is not a human being and legally is not considered a person, therefore you don't even have a homicide, much less a murder. The end. I don't need photos or development timelines - there are probably few people at FYM who have my science background anyway, so I am perfectly well informed on the subject matter and have made up my mind.
Who needs a science background to know that a living being who looks like a human, has the same dna as a human being, and is developing and has developed the organs of a human being and resides inside of a woman human being is itself a human being?
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Old 02-13-2007, 08:12 PM   #251
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I screwed up big time. I normally don't discuss abortion in public. It's just not something I'm comfortable with. I was trying to make the case for a secular state, something in general I feel very comfortable with, and let the cat out of the bag. Oops.
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Old 02-13-2007, 08:17 PM   #252
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Originally posted by verte76
I screwed up big time. I normally don't discuss abortion in public. It's just not something I'm comfortable with. I was trying to make the case for a secular state, something in general I feel very comfortable with, and let the cat out of the bag. Oops.
I helped you let the cat out of the bag by taking issue with what you wrote. I don't feel bad about it, and neither should you, because an important and meaningful discussion has followed.
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Old 02-13-2007, 08:20 PM   #253
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Leaving religion out of it, because religion is only meaningful to those who believe...

Bottom line, at some point the fetus is alive. When that point is is debateable I suppose. You could make a case for "it's alive at the moment of conception" as well as "it's not alive until the head clears the vulva". If I had a way to prove if/when the fetus becomes self aware I'd probably make that the cutoff point, so I'd allow the morning after pill (did anyone ever confirm what it is, yes, it's basically a medical abortion, I think it prevents the embryo from attaching to the uterine wall). But I suppose that point of self awareness would vary; I'd guess the fetal brain's development rate varies, just as a child's brain does. But in the end, the possibility that that fetus might be alive, and aware, is why I'm 100% anti-abortion. IMO that life trumps any of the personal liberty arguments that pro-choicers generally use (and yes I realize that the majority of pro-choicers are not "pro-abortion").

At least A_Wanderes is consistent; A_W consistently takes a liberty-first stance on various topics. What I'd ask the other folks who make the libertarian argument for abortion legality (my body, my choice etc) is do you generally take that position on other issues? Prostitution for example. Should a woman have the ultimate say as to what she does with her body (or a man I suppose)?

Also what about minors...most would agree a minor can't consent to sex; why can an underage girl make the decision to abort, but not the decision to have sex in the first place?

I think it's really difficult to discuss this issue objectively. It's a credit to the FYM community how civil this thread has remained, from both sides of the argument.
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Old 02-13-2007, 08:24 PM   #254
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Quote:
Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar
Wow your posts as of late.

Self righteous much?
I have not changed my viewpoint at all.

In other threads, you stand up for the rights of the underprivileged, the weak, against the strong, the powerful.

This IS a moral issue, just the same as standing up for the poor is.

Can't you see that?
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Old 02-13-2007, 08:28 PM   #255
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Quote:
Originally posted by 80sU2isBest


I helped you let the cat out of the bag by taking issue with what you wrote. I don't feel bad about it, and neither should you, because an important and meaningful discussion has followed.
Oh, the discussion is cool. It's a comfort zone thing with me. I'm just not comfortable discussing abortion in public, and I did something I normally don't do.
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