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Old 02-13-2007, 07:13 PM   #226
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Originally posted by 80sU2isBest


There are many great men and women who born in unfortunate circumstances who have risen to positively impact the world around them. Those circumstances include orphanages, foster homes, bad parents, poverty, etc.

That's a piss poor argument. For every Einstein that you thank God was born, I can bring up a Hitler or a rapist. It's a complete non-starter of an argument.

And frankly, our courts have begun to recognize wrongful birth and wrongful life claims, so yes you have instances of people actually suing for having been born.
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Old 02-13-2007, 07:14 PM   #227
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The way I see it. When we are in the womb it's like the apple from the tree. Once we are born we are then born into sin. But this is just my belife and with many faiths out there, it could be a tall tale from the bible?
So you're innocent up until you're born, then everything changes?

Interesting
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Old 02-13-2007, 07:14 PM   #228
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Originally posted by anitram


That's a piss poor argument. For every Einstein that you thank God was born, I can bring up a Hitler or a rapist. It's a complete non-starter of an argument.

And frankly, our courts have begun to recognize wrongful birth and wrongful life claims, so yes you have instances of people actually suing for having been born.
Not really, how many more good people are out there compared to evil people?
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Old 02-13-2007, 07:15 PM   #229
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As it stands, abortion is not considered murder, so it's not illegal. I don't really know whether I think it's murder or not and if it makes this nonsense go away, then no it's not murder.
It's not nonsense. There is indeed a point to it. I wanted to see if you were someone who thinks that murder should be made legal.

But since you think abortion should be legal, I am glad to know that, despite what you originally said, you do not think Abortion is murder.
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Old 02-13-2007, 07:20 PM   #230
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Originally posted by anitram


That's a piss poor argument. For every Einstein that you thank God was born, I can bring up a Hitler or a rapist. It's a complete non-starter of an argument.
No, that's not a piss poor argument, because the truth is that we don't know what kind of person the fetus will grow up to be. In fact, there's a much better chance that he/she will grow up to be a decent productive member of society rather than a Hitler or a rapist.

Are you saying that since there is a chance that the child born in unfortunate circumstances might grow up to be a bad person, that it's a-ok to abort the fetus before it has a chance?
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Old 02-13-2007, 07:23 PM   #231
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Originally posted by 80sU2isBest


Are you saying that since there is a chance that the child born in unfortunate circumstances might grow up to be a bad person, that it's a-ok to abort the fetus before it has a chance?
I don't know where you get these leaps of logic.

I am saying no such thing - I maintain this is a ridiculous, illogical argument to make. Period.

Bottom line: abortion is not murder, because to establish murder, there must have been a death of a human being. A fetus is not a human being and legally is not considered a person, therefore you don't even have a homicide, much less a murder. The end. I don't need photos or development timelines - there are probably few people at FYM who have my science background anyway, so I am perfectly well informed on the subject matter and have made up my mind.

For those wondering whether it's better to be born to an "unfortunate life" or whatever it is you termed it - well as I said, go look into wrongful life claims and perhaps you'd be surprised at how many there are.
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Old 02-13-2007, 07:31 PM   #232
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But since you think abortion should be legal, I am glad to know that, despite what you originally said, you do not think Abortion is murder.
I don't know whether I think it's murder or not b/c that depends on whether the embryo being aborted is considered a person or not. I'm not an embryologist or any sort of biologist, so I won't say one way or the other until I've made more of an effort to inform myself.

You asked me to look past the legal aspect, but I can't b/c "murder" is a legal term and I've always treated it as such. You're asking me if I think abortion should be legal, yet also asking me to throw out the fact that I look at this issue from a legal perspective so I'm sorry if I can't make you understand, but I think I've been about as clear as can be. At present, the courts have not ruled that an embryo is a murder-able human being, so I suppose that means abortion is not murder.

All that matters to me is that I won't ever do it, and quite frankly my reasons are really no one's business but mine and my husband's.
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Old 02-13-2007, 07:32 PM   #233
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Originally posted by anitram


I don't know where you get these leaps of logic.

I am saying no such thing - I maintain this is a ridiculous, illogical argument to make. Period.

Bottom line: abortion is not murder, because to establish murder, there must have been a death of a human being. A fetus is not a human being and legally is not considered a person, therefore you don't even have a homicide, much less a murder. The end. I don't need photos or development timelines - there are probably few people at FYM who have my science background anyway, so I am perfectly well informed on the subject matter and have made up my mind.

For those wondering whether it's better to be born to an "unfortunate life" or whatever it is you termed it - well as I said, go look into wrongful life claims and perhaps you'd be surprised at how many there are.
Did you see the picture I posted? Looks to be human. Has hands, feet, a nose, mouth, eyes, ears and more. Oh that's right it's a growth. So how about we redifine it our all books as a growth not know to be human until it comes out a vagina.

And if any of you are offended sorry.
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Old 02-13-2007, 07:33 PM   #234
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Originally posted by anitram
Bottom line: abortion is not murder, because to establish murder, there must have been a death of a human being. A fetus is not a human being and legally is not considered a person, therefore you don't even have a homicide, much less a murder. The end.

I'm sure we can always appeal to narrow legalism to defend practically any point of view.

Moral societies view abortion as a crime - it really is that simple.
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Old 02-13-2007, 07:36 PM   #235
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Originally posted by anitram

I don't need photos or development timelines - there are probably few people at FYM who have my science background anyway, so I am perfectly well informed on the subject matter and have made up my mind.
Pat yourself on the back much?
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Old 02-13-2007, 07:38 PM   #236
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Originally posted by financeguy
I'm sure we can always appeal to narrow legalism to defend practically any point of view.
This is not narrow legalism, it is a matter of correct statutory interpretation in Canada. A fetus is not a person under our Constitution - you are free to argue that the Constitution is incorrect, take it up with our Parliament and the Supreme Court. And good luck.

Quote:
Moral societies view abortion as a crime - it really is that simple.
It is neither simple nor factual. It's called an opinion.
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Old 02-13-2007, 07:38 PM   #237
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Old 02-13-2007, 07:40 PM   #238
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Pat yourself on the back much?
Aren't you clever?

If you have experience in this field and have studied enough to come to an educated conclusion, what's wrong with that? It is at least based on what information which you've digested and evaluated and come to feel a certain way about. If you, as an MD or PhD or whatever come to the opposite conclusion, I can respect that a hell of a lot more than "hey it looks like a cute baby, so it must be human!"
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Old 02-13-2007, 07:42 PM   #239
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Originally posted by anitram

The end. I don't need photos or development timelines - there are probably few people at FYM who have my science background anyway, so I am perfectly well informed on the subject matter and have made up my mind.
What's the meaning of life?
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Old 02-13-2007, 07:44 PM   #240
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Originally posted by financeguy
Moral societies view abortion as a crime
What is a 'moral society'?
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