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Old 02-13-2007, 05:23 PM   #196
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Originally posted by anitram


Christian organizations are not the same as a Christian who is rabidly against abortion but never does anything concrete for children here. If you are not willing to personally adopt a child, or personally fund the raising of a child until the age of 18, then there is a certain level of hypocrisy.

We all know very well that there are not enough Christians adopting children and not enough Christian organizations (and really should we be promoting the institutional raising of a child?) taking care of abandoned kids by the sheer number of children who fall through the cracks in the system.

A child should not be reared in an orphanage, despite the good intentions of the Christians (or whoever else) running it. Why are there not enough homes if there are so many rabidly anti-choice people around?
Exactly. The numbers of Christians relative to the numbers of abandoned children are really all the proof I need. And I'm not talking about aid organizations in Africa or southeast Asia, I'm talking about the kids right HERE in the USA. I've yet to meet a trained social worker, Christian or otherwise, who's life's passion and work is with child protective services who is in favor of banning all abortion.
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Old 02-13-2007, 05:30 PM   #197
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Originally posted by 80sU2isBest
So, since you think abortion is murder, you think that at least one type of murder should be legal - abortion; is that a correct assessment of what you are saying?
I can't even answer that b/c you ignored the entire point of my original answer. Legislation and litigation are as much (if not even more so) about setting precedent than just saying in black and white "X activity is WRONG/illegal." Whether or not abortion is murder is not the only issue that would affect how courts rule.

There are a lot of things I personally think that are opposite of how the courts in this country rule. I'm OK with that, b/c I realize that most of my opinions have absolutely no place being enforced by the government and our court system.

And, like I've said all along, abortion isn't a political issue unless the government or court systems agree that life does in fact begin at conception and an embryo is a human being with the same rights as you and I. Maybe I see it as murder, but the courts don't, because you can't murder something that isn't a person.
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Old 02-13-2007, 05:30 PM   #198
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Quote:
Originally posted by anitram


Christian organizations are not the same as a Christian who is rabidly against abortion but never does anything concrete for children here. If you are not willing to personally adopt a child, or personally fund the raising of a child until the age of 18, then there is a certain level of hypocrisy.
So anyone who is not financially able to take care of a child has no say in how they are treated?

Okey dokey then, if my neighbor beats his kid, I have no rights to tell him to stop unless I can afford to take care of the kid myself? And if I do tell him to stop, I'm a hypocrite?

Quote:
Originally posted by anitram

We all know very well that there are not enough Christians adopting children and not enough Christian organizations (and really should we be promoting the institutional raising of a child?) taking care of abandoned kids by the sheer number of children who fall through the cracks in the system.
Do we know that?

Quote:
Originally posted by anitram
A child should not be reared in an orphanage, despite the good intentions of the Christians (or whoever else) running it.
It would be better for the child to have been aborted than to grow up in an orphanage?

Quote:
Originally posted by anitram
Why are there not enough homes if there are so many rabidly anti-choice people around?
There are a number of valid reasons not enough people adopt, including the possibility that some, as you suggested, take a prolife stance but don't really care about kids when it comes right down to it. But there's so much more that maybe you ahven't even considered; maybe there's not enough people who can afford to adopt a child, or maybe there's too much red tape...the list of possibilities could go on and on and on...
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Old 02-13-2007, 05:35 PM   #199
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Originally posted by Liesje


I can't even answer that b/c you ignored the entire point of my original answer. Legislation and litigation are as much (if not even more so) about setting precedent than just saying in black and white "X activity is WRONG/illegal." Whether or not abortion is murder is not the only issue that would affect how courts rule.

There are a lot of things I personally think that are opposite of how the courts in this country rule. I'm OK with that, b/c I realize that most of my opinions have absolutely no place being enforced by the government and our court system.

And, like I've said all along, abortion isn't a political issue unless the government or court systems agree that life does in fact begin at conception and an embryo is a human being with the same rights as you and I. Maybe I see it as murder, but the courts don't, because you can't murder something that isn't a person.
I'm not asking you what the courts say or about legislation and litigation.

I'm asking you simply about what's in your heart. Here, I'll rephrase it a little, so that we can skip past the issues of the law and get straight to what I want to know about - your heart and belief system.

You have said that you believe that abortion is murder. If your belief is true, do you think that abortion should be legal?
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Old 02-13-2007, 05:39 PM   #200
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Originally posted by Liesje


Exactly. The numbers of Christians relative to the numbers of abandoned children are really all the proof I need. And I'm not talking about aid organizations in Africa or southeast Asia, I'm talking about the kids right HERE in the USA. I've yet to meet a trained social worker, Christian or otherwise, who's life's passion and work is with child protective services who is in favor of banning all abortion.
Why did you introduce the qualifier "trained social worker"? Does that mean that my service to children doesn't matter because I'm not a "trained social worker"?
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Old 02-13-2007, 05:40 PM   #201
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Originally posted by 80sU2isBest


Why did you introduce the qualifier "trained social worker"? Does that mean that my service to children doesn't matter because I'm not a "trained social worker"?
Not for what I'm talking about. When it comes to facts and info about kids who've been abandoned, orphaned, or taken away, yes I ask trained social workers and not volunteers. I volunteer for the Humane Society and I don't expect people to consider me a good source of info relative to the veterinarians and behaviorists that have degrees and decades of experience working in all aspects of the field.
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Old 02-13-2007, 05:46 PM   #202
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Who said it only has to be christians that adopt children? Hell if Gay families want to adopt to help with adoptions then go ahead.
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Old 02-13-2007, 05:50 PM   #203
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Originally posted by 80sU2isBest

It would be better for the child to have been aborted than to grow up in an orphanage?
This bothers me too. Would it really be better for someone not to have been born rather than to be born under less-than-perfect circumstances?
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Old 02-13-2007, 05:52 PM   #204
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Quote:
Originally posted by 80sU2isBest


I'm not asking you what the courts say or about legislation and litigation.

I'm asking you simply about what's in your heart. Here, I'll rephrase it a little, so that we can skip past the issues of the law and get straight to what I want to know about - your heart and belief system.

You have said that you believe that abortion is murder. If your belief is true, do you think that abortion should be legal?
Does a foetus ever think? Does it ever have a realisation of self? Does it ever exist within society? Does it obey the laws and enjoy rights and liberties? Is it a human being?
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Old 02-13-2007, 05:53 PM   #205
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Who said it only has to be christians that adopt children? Hell if Gay families want to adopt to help with adoptions then go ahead.
Another good point. All the people I know (not peeps in this thread, real people in my life) who oppose abortion for religious reasons - which happens to be a LOT - also oppose gay unions and gays adopting. How does that work

Not only are they furiously advocating in favor for a situation that will only create more unwanted babies, they're also restricting the likelihood of kids being adopted. How Christian
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Old 02-13-2007, 05:53 PM   #206
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Originally posted by LemonMelon


This bothers me too. Would it really be better for someone not to have been born rather than to be born under less-than-perfect circumstances?
Thanks.

There are many great men and women who born in unfortunate circumstances who have risen to positively impact the world around them. Those circumstances include orphanages, foster homes, bad parents, poverty, etc.

My nephew has Cerebral Palsy. He has been a blessing to us all. I'm glad he's alive, my family is glad he's alive, and he's glad he's alive.
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Old 02-13-2007, 05:55 PM   #207
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Well there would be unwanted babies if people learned to have sex with a condom or not have sex at all. Then we could stop (sorry to say) but holocaust of the 21st century.
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Old 02-13-2007, 05:58 PM   #208
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You like to point out how "Very Christian." so to be christian mean to follow Jesus or God's footsteps and value all life. So how can you say you want to ban the DP because you must value his life, because it's god's choice, but are complete opposite with abortion? Would Jesus be Pro-Choice?
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Old 02-13-2007, 05:59 PM   #209
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Quote:
Originally posted by 80sU2isBest
I'm asking you simply about what's in your heart. Here, I'll rephrase it a little, so that we can skip past the issues of the law and get straight to what I want to know about - your heart and belief system.
I will not have an abortion because I have absolutely no reason to have one. If I became pregnant and it wasn't planned, I'd say "oh well, we were going to have kids anyway someday" and be very happy because a child is a gift from God.
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Old 02-13-2007, 06:01 PM   #210
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Originally posted by Justin24
Would Jesus be Pro-Choice?
That's exactly it right there. What is the "very Christian" thing to do?

Christian = follower of Christ

So, what would Jesus' opinion be on abortion?
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