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Old 08-28-2005, 06:50 AM   #1
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A War to Be Proud Of (Their Title Not Mine)

DOES THE PRESIDENT deserve the benefit of the reserve of fortitude that I just mentioned? Only just, if at all. We need not argue about the failures and the mistakes and even the crimes, because these in some ways argue themselves. But a positive accounting could be offered without braggartry, and would include:

(1) The overthrow of Talibanism and Baathism, and the exposure of many highly suggestive links between the two elements of this Hitler-Stalin pact. Abu Musab al Zarqawi, who moved from Afghanistan to Iraq before the coalition intervention, has even gone to the trouble of naming his organization al Qaeda in Mesopotamia.

(2) The subsequent capitulation of Qaddafi's Libya in point of weapons of mass destruction--a capitulation that was offered not to Kofi Annan or the E.U. but to Blair and Bush.

(3) The consequent unmasking of the A.Q. Khan network for the illicit transfer of nuclear technology to Libya, Iran, and North Korea.

(4) The agreement by the United Nations that its own reform is necessary and overdue, and the unmasking of a quasi-criminal network within its elite.

(5) The craven admission by President Chirac and Chancellor Schröder, when confronted with irrefutable evidence of cheating and concealment, respecting solemn treaties, on the part of Iran, that not even this will alter their commitment to neutralism. (One had already suspected as much in the Iraqi case.)

(6) The ability to certify Iraq as actually disarmed, rather than accept the word of a psychopathic autocrat.

(7) The immense gains made by the largest stateless minority in the region--the Kurds--and the spread of this example to other states.

(8) The related encouragement of democratic and civil society movements in Egypt, Syria, and most notably Lebanon, which has regained a version of its autonomy.

(9) The violent and ignominious death of thousands of bin Ladenist infiltrators into Iraq and Afghanistan, and the real prospect of greatly enlarging this number.

(10) The training and hardening of many thousands of American servicemen and women in a battle against the forces of nihilism and absolutism, which training and hardening will surely be of great use in future combat.

It would be admirable if the president could manage to make such a presentation. It would also be welcome if he and his deputies adopted a clear attitude toward the war within the war: in other words, stated plainly, that the secular and pluralist forces within Afghan and Iraqi society, while they are not our clients, can in no circumstance be allowed to wonder which outcome we favor.


http://www.weeklystandard.com/Conten...phqjw.asp?pg=1
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Old 08-28-2005, 08:35 AM   #2
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nah.. all irrelavant. Bush is a freak and embarassment. His administration is full of random, actions with no clear purpose or direction.

He got lucky with all of these things.
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Old 08-28-2005, 09:00 AM   #3
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Re: A War to Be Proud Of (Their Title Not Mine)

Quote:
Originally posted by Dreadsox
(1) The overthrow of Talibanism and Baathism, and the exposure of many highly suggestive links between the two elements of this Hitler-Stalin pact. Abu Musab al Zarqawi, who moved from Afghanistan to Iraq before the coalition intervention, has even gone to the trouble of naming his organization al Qaeda in Mesopotamia.
Since when did Saddam and the Taliban have a pact together? Giving the presence of al-Zarqawi in Iraq as "evidence" of a pact is specious reasoning. You could probably also argue that he entered Iraq after the fall of Saddam and use that as reasoning that the U.S. and Al-Qaeda have a Hitler-Stalin pact.

Quote:
(2) The subsequent capitulation of Qaddafi's Libya in point of weapons of mass destruction--a capitulation that was offered not to Kofi Annan or the E.U. but to Blair and Bush.
Some dictators do respond better to aggression, yes.

Quote:
(3) The consequent unmasking of the A.Q. Khan network for the illicit transfer of nuclear technology to Libya, Iran, and North Korea.
Not that this matters at all. Pakistan is our "ally" and Musharraf pardoned Khan.

Quote:
(4) The agreement by the United Nations that its own reform is necessary and overdue, and the unmasking of a quasi-criminal network within its elite.
The UN is in need of some reform, but that also probably includes dismantling the Cold War-era "Security Council" too. The ideology behind seven powerful nations having veto power over the rest of the 170 seems "quasi-criminal" in itself.

Quote:
(5) The craven admission by President Chirac and Chancellor Schröder, when confronted with irrefutable evidence of cheating and concealment, respecting solemn treaties, on the part of Iran, that not even this will alter their commitment to neutralism. (One had already suspected as much in the Iraqi case.)
That's called "conviction," don't you know? It's like Bush. Once he had a mindset on war, not even the weapons inspectors like he had half-heartedly requested would alter his commitment to war.

Quote:
(6) The ability to certify Iraq as actually disarmed, rather than accept the word of a psychopathic autocrat.
You didn't need to accept the word of a "psychopathic autocrat." You just would never have believed the weapons inspectors when they said that nothing was there. So it just took the U.S. blowing up a good portion of the country to discover that nothing was there.

Quote:
(7) The immense gains made by the largest stateless minority in the region--the Kurds--and the spread of this example to other states.
The Kurds have been doing well ever since the days of the "No-Fly Zone." I don't think they've really made more improvements than they already had. On top of that, I don't see either the Sunnis or the Shi'ites following their example at all, except maybe the Shi'ites who seemingly want their own autonomous region now too.

Quote:
(8) The related encouragement of democratic and civil society movements in Egypt, Syria, and most notably Lebanon, which has regained a version of its autonomy.
Egypt played a game of window dressing. The hurdles to become president are stacked against the opposition, but does make the U.S. happy. It should prevent Egypt from turning into a theocracy, but it does not make them democratic.

The U.S. had nothing to do with Lebanon. A monkey could have been President of the U.S. and the actions in Lebanon would have been the same; it's an example of internal reform.

And Syria? I'm not aware of them doing anything democratic lately.

Quote:
(9) The violent and ignominious death of thousands of bin Ladenist infiltrators into Iraq and Afghanistan, and the real prospect of greatly enlarging this number.
Sure...I guess if we don't mind staying there for 50 years, we could probably end up killing the entire population of the Middle East. The problem is that they seem to be multiplying at the same rate we're killing the insurgents.

Quote:
(10) The training and hardening of many thousands of American servicemen and women in a battle against the forces of nihilism and absolutism, which training and hardening will surely be of great use in future combat.
Haha...this sounds like something I'd hear in a "G.I. Joe" cartoon. "The forces of nihilism and absolutism"? LOL. I don't know what's "nihilist" about anything they believe, which is all "absolutist." Of course, "nuance" is currently out of favor amongst our "absolutist" President here, so I don't see much encouragement for our enemies to become less "absolutist."

Melon
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Old 08-29-2005, 11:38 AM   #4
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Also, I think the "Libyan capitulation" as a result of US's intervention in Afghanistan/Iraq may be a stretch. The timing of it made it seem that way, yes, but there is evidence Libya was ready to come clean on its WMD for several years.

http://www.brookings.edu/views/op-ed/indyk/20040309.htm

"Libyan representatives offered to surrender WMD programmes more than four years ago, at the outset of secret negotiations with US officials. In May 1999, their offer was officially conveyed to the US government at the peak of the "12 years of diplomacy with Iraq" that Mr. Bush now disparages....
Why did we not pursue the Libyan WMD offer then? Because resolving the PanAm 103 issues was our condition for any further engagement. Moreover, as Libya's chemical weapons programme was not considered an imminent threat and its nuclear programme barely existed, getting Libya out of terrorism and securing compensation had to be top priorities."
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Old 08-29-2005, 11:49 AM   #5
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wait ... were we supposed to take that article from the, ahem, Weekly Standard seriously?
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Old 08-30-2005, 03:43 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511
wait ... were we supposed to take that article from the, ahem, Weekly Standard seriously?
Do you take the democratic underground seriously????
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Old 08-30-2005, 05:03 PM   #7
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Well it is moot because Hitchens drinks and therefore his arguments are utterly pointless ~ end of story.
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Old 08-30-2005, 06:26 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally posted by Dreadsox


Do you take the democratic underground seriously????


what's the democratic underground?
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Old 08-30-2005, 06:40 PM   #9
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I highlighted the part of the article I thought worthwhile discussing. I did not post the entire article because I did not think it would spur a discussion.

Peace
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