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Old 03-23-2004, 05:14 PM   #31
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Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar


Toast?! How do we know that any of the Middle East hope for democracy? Why is we think we have the answers? Yes many suffered under Saddam, but that doesn't neccesarily mean they wanted this. I just didn't realize that we asked the Middle East what they wanted, but I'm glad we did.
I suggest that you go to the WAR section and look at the new scientific poll that was done on how Iraqi's feel about this. The Majority believe that the invasion last year was the right thing to do and the Majority say their lives are better now than before the war.
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Old 03-23-2004, 05:23 PM   #32
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I suggest that you go to the WAR section and look at the new scientific poll that was done on how Iraqi's feel about this. The Majority believe that the invasion last year was the right thing to do and the Majority say their lives are better now than before the war.
Polls can be twisted and manipulated to show anything, I do not believe them and do not read them. They mean nothing to me.

I do see some great things going on in Iraq, but I also see growing violence and clerics that are protesting the constitution, but none of this is my point. My point is why and how do we assume that everyone wants democracy?
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Old 03-23-2004, 05:29 PM   #33
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Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar


Polls can be twisted and manipulated to show anything, I do not believe them and do not read them. They mean nothing to me.

I do see some great things going on in Iraq, but I also see growing violence and clerics that are protesting the constitution, but none of this is my point. My point is why and how do we assume that everyone wants democracy?
I guess that Moslims are looking forward to the future because they have a chance to form a Moslim state and the Iraq Christians are not so happy about the future at all.

Sting, are there more detials about that poll ?
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Old 03-23-2004, 06:08 PM   #34
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Yeah, I would call terrorist acts every day in Iraq "more secure." And the fact that more people in that regioun are expressing hatred towards the United States, which is gonna help produce future terrorist cells. And saying that his military was destroyed is an overstatement. I guess it's the ghosts of the supposed "destroyed" military that are comitting these acts of violence every day. And I guess your views of the area are much "wider" than mine in saying that we liberated them from mass murder. 500 American Soldiers dying for a false cause: Is that not mass murder? 5000 US soldiers wounded for life: Is that not mass murder? 200 innocent Spanish dying: Is that not mass murder? Not to mention the thosands of other civilians murdered: IS THAT not mass murder?

Violence does not expel violence.

The American public was under the impression that we went into Iraq, ignored the UN, because Saddam posed an "imminent" threat to the United States because of the fear of giving WMD to Terrorists. NOT because we wanted to liberate the people. That became the cause AFTER the evidence of WMD's was not found, or much sparse than thought. So to sit there and raise your little glass to a democracy that isn't there yet, and is not welcomed in the region by a vast majority is just as arrogant as GW Bush landing on an aircraft carrier and declaring the "mission accomplished"
The region is far more secure today from Saddam's military and other capabilities that had invaded and attacked four different countries in the past 20 years. A majority of the planets energy supply, vital the global economy, is in the Persian Gulf, and this is far more secure today now that Saddam is removed.

In addition, multiple United Nations Security Council Resolutions of been enforced with the removal of Saddam. Hundreds of items related to the production and storing of WMD have been siezed and Saddam's regime and military destroyed.

Yes there are Saddam loyalist out there making attacks, but they have ZERO capability to invade and take over countries like Kuwait, Saudi Arabia, Iran, Turkey etc. They also have very little if any capability to cause damage in those countries. Their capabilities remained limited primarily to the Sunni Triangle West and North of Baghdad.

The US military continues to capture and kill many of these terrorist and Saddam Loyalist. More importantly, thousands of Iraqi police and Security forces have now been trained. In the coming months and years, Iraq will have a police and security force well over 300,000 in numbers. This will greatly help in reducing the terrorist attacks by Saddam loyalist and others. But these things take time, patience and hard work.

When I speak of Mass murder, I'm talking about the 1.7 million people that Saddam killed when he was in power. I'm also talking about his capabilities in conducting mass murder, the ability to sieze and disrupt the planets main energy sources there by ruining the global economy. This is what the Iraqi people and the rest of the world have been freed from with Saddam's removal.

A note on the American and coalitions losses. As of today, 392 US Military personal have been killed by hostile fire. 2,900 US Military personal have been wounded from hostile fire. The wounded figure includes all types of wounds, serious and those requiring no hospitalization at all. Soldiers cut by flying glass and whom returned to duty within an hour are included in that figure.

The casaulties while sad and terrible are not an example of a successful carrying out of mass murder by terrorist, although the Spanish case could be considered that. In fighting terrorism and other threats to security, there are going to be losses. These losses only show that efforts need to continue in combating remanents of Saddam's regime and Al Quada.

The use of Military force is necessary to combat and defeat dicators like Saddam and terrorist like Al Quada. Pacifism and handing out flowers will not stop Al Quada or any of these other terrorist.


The United States never ignored the United Nations. In fact it got another resolution calling on Saddam to verifiably disarm of all WMD or face the use of military force. This United Nations resolution was resolution 1441 and was passed in November of 2002. Saddam refused to verifiably disarm and member states of the United Nations to include the USA and others took military action in 2003 to enforce the United Nations resolution 1441.

The reason Saddam was required to verifiably disarm of all WMD was because of his mass use of such materials in killing people and his unprovoked invasions and attacks on four neighboring countries. The 1991 Gulf War Ceacefire required that Saddam verifiably disarm of all WMD or face military force to disarm him and authorized in resolution 678.

The United States along with other member states of the United Nations enforced multiple Security Council resolutions with the removal of Saddam from power. While actual WMD that Saddam failed to account for has yet to be found, inspectors have found over 300 items that were in direct violation of 1441 involved in the production and the stroring of WMD. The administrations case rock solid because it was based on the enforcement of UN resolutions that Saddam had failed to comply with which authorized military action to be taken.

The new scientific poll done of Iraqi citizens shows that the majority of Iraqi citizens support the coalition invasion to remove Saddam from power last year. The majority also say that their lives are better now than before the war.

Democracy takes time to develop. But there are already many victories on the road to that democracy. The region and the world are safer today with the removal of Saddam than they have been in decades. Building a new democracy in Iraq will have incaculable benefits for the entire region and the world. The region and world are more secure because of the removal of Saddam and 25 million people have the opportunity to develop the first true democracy in the Persian Gulf region.

Indeed, I will definitely drink to that.
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Old 03-23-2004, 06:13 PM   #35
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Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar


Polls can be twisted and manipulated to show anything, I do not believe them and do not read them. They mean nothing to me.

I do see some great things going on in Iraq, but I also see growing violence and clerics that are protesting the constitution, but none of this is my point. My point is why and how do we assume that everyone wants democracy?
This was a scientific poll done by experts to guage Iraqi public opinion. It was not done by the Bush administration or the CPA. It was done by multiple independent media organizations. The fact that your not happy about the results of the poll definitely does not mean its not accurate.

You can believe what ever you want to, but that is how the majority of Iraqi people feel. You may disagree with their feelings, but you should at least note and respect them.
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Old 03-23-2004, 06:18 PM   #36
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I guess that Moslims are looking forward to the future because they have a chance to form a Moslim state and the Iraq Christians are not so happy about the future at all.

Sting, are there more detials about that poll ?
Most Iraqi's tend to be more securlar in their beliefs than their neighbors. Even the Shia in southern Iraq are more securlar in their thoughts than their neighbors in Iran. There are problems and potential trouble makers but things are moving forward.

Regardless of what all Iraqi's feel they want their new government to be like, the majority believe that the US invasion in 2003 and the removal of Saddam was the right thing to do. The majority also says that their lifes are better now than they were before the war. Two important things liberals and the Anti-War crowd should take note of.

All the details I know of the poll are in the WAR forum. ABC was involved in the poll so that might be a place to look for more details if there are any.
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Old 03-24-2004, 01:00 PM   #37
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Originally posted by STING2

The new scientific poll done of Iraqi citizens shows that the majority of Iraqi citizens support the coalition invasion to remove Saddam from power last year. The majority also say that their lives are better now than before the war.

Democracy takes time to develop. But there are already many victories on the road to that democracy. The region and the world are safer today with the removal of Saddam than they have been in decades. Building a new democracy in Iraq will have incaculable benefits for the entire region and the world. The region and world are more secure because of the removal of Saddam and 25 million people have the opportunity to develop the first true democracy in the Persian Gulf region.

Indeed, I will definitely drink to that.
You can throw all the numbers at me and all the polls and all the heresay. I just wish you could see the other side of it. The war is not over by any means. And I just find that particular comment: "Raise a glass, a toast" to the war that is not over very arrogant and cocky. It goes along with the way this administration functions: Selfish and pompous. Please try to look at the other side of the issue before you support an ignorant comment like that.

As for democracy: it should come from within, not from an outside super-power. If the Iraqi people had said, "please help us America, we want to become a democratic nation, and we need your assistance." THEN we could have went in there and made the change. But imposing democracy on a nation is wrong and once again, arrogant, doing it for its own personal gratification. What if the French "imposed" democracy on America in the 1700's. Would we be the same today?
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Old 03-24-2004, 01:43 PM   #38
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The fact that your not happy about the results of the poll definitely does not mean its not accurate.

Once again I'm so f##king tired of you putting words in my mouth!! You are the only individual that I've ever put on my block list, but then took you off due to the fact that I wanted to see everyone's opinion. But now I'm reminded why I put you on in the first place it wasn't your opinions that bugged me it was your constant arrogance, twisting, and placing words in people's mouths.

I didn't say I wasn't happy with the results of the polls. I said I don't believe in polls, polls prove nothing to me. I don't care if it's a poll that agrees with my opinion or not. I've studied enough about polls to know that even the most unbiased poll will have scientific problems with it, so I don't bother with them.
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Old 03-24-2004, 02:26 PM   #39
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You can throw all the numbers at me and all the polls and all the heresay. I just wish you could see the other side of it. The war is not over by any means. And I just find that particular comment: "Raise a glass, a toast" to the war that is not over very arrogant and cocky. It goes along with the way this administration functions: Selfish and pompous. Please try to look at the other side of the issue before you support an ignorant comment like that.

As for democracy: it should come from within, not from an outside super-power. If the Iraqi people had said, "please help us America, we want to become a democratic nation, and we need your assistance." THEN we could have went in there and made the change. But imposing democracy on a nation is wrong and once again, arrogant, doing it for its own personal gratification. What if the French "imposed" democracy on America in the 1700's. Would we be the same today?
If you don't want to toast the successes that those serving in the military in Iraq, serving in some other way in Iraq, or the Iraqi people themselves, thats up to you. Most people here in the USA or elsewhere make toast to successful accomplishments. What most US troops find irritating when they come back home are people that fail to recognize what they have accomplished in Iraq. The same goes for civilian personal working hard to develop Iraq.

I'm well aware that the war continues and I never said it was over. I see the othersides of the issue argued every night especially in this place that is overwhelmingly anti-Bush.

The first reason for the war was Saddam's failure to verifiably disarm of all WMD. Setting up a democratic Iraq was second.

I don't think setting up Democratic government in a country that was formally ruled by a brutal dictatorship is wrong in any way. #1 the people in such a dictatorship are powerless to choose their leader and often unable to get help from the outside as well.

Saddam had a military of 400,000 and 12 different security services that often spied on each other as well as the people. Studies done on Saddam's personal security services have revealed they were more exstensive than even Hitlers. Simply put, it was impossible for the Iraqi people to revolt and overthrow Saddam. The only way to remove Saddam was with outside military force. I can go into much more detail on this particular point if you would like.

In addition as we have seen with World War II and the wars in the Balkans in the 1990s etc., the only way democracy can come to certain regions, is through military intervention from foreign countries.

By the way, the American colonies were much closer to a democracy than the French Monarchy was in the 1700s. The King of Englands crack down and unfair trade, and tax laws are what caused the American Revolution. In any event, despite the fact France was a Monarchy, they helped the American colonies achieve independence which created the first true democracy on the planet that exist to today.
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Old 03-24-2004, 02:47 PM   #40
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Who will we bring democracy to next? We're the liberator of oppressed people across the globe right?
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Old 03-24-2004, 02:52 PM   #41
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Who will we bring democracy to next? We're the liberator of oppressed people across the globe right?
Let's see how many other countries we can bully around: What about Syria - they have a small army - I bet we could "shock and awe" the pants of them! Then we could make Syria and Iraq the 51st and 52nd states of America.

What about Bulgaria? I'm sure we could find some sort of "nasty" weapon in their country. Shock and awe to the 53rd state.
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Old 03-24-2004, 02:54 PM   #42
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Who will we bring democracy to next? We're the liberator of oppressed people across the globe right?
Hopefully with working with other countries in the coming years, democracy will be able to develop in countries where it has yet to. The United States has indeed in a variety of ways been apart of liberating many people over the past century with the help of other countries and I would hope it would continue to work towards advancing democracy and capitalism across the globe.
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Old 03-24-2004, 02:55 PM   #43
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I was thinking North Korea. A country that admits to producing WMD. Shouldn't we be in there ASAP? Making the world a safer place.
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Old 03-24-2004, 03:05 PM   #44
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Let's see how many other countries we can bully around: What about Syria - they have a small army - I bet we could "shock and awe" the pants of them! Then we could make Syria and Iraq the 51st and 52nd states of America.

What about Bulgaria? I'm sure we could find some sort of "nasty" weapon in their country. Shock and awe to the 53rd state.
It is not the US goal to bully other countries nor does it take and keep other countries land except to bury our military servicemen who have died for their security and freedom.

Syria does have a lot of problems in regards to its relationship to Israel. It has supported terrorism against Israel and did attack and invade Israel multiple times in the 1950s, 1960s, and 1970s.

With 319,000 troops in its Military, Syria has the 11th largest military in the world.

Bulgaria is a US ally and will become officially apart of the NATO Alliance next month. It is schedual to become apart of the European Union in the next few years.

Bulgaria has supported the military action in Iraq and has sent its own troops to Iraq as well.
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Old 03-24-2004, 03:13 PM   #45
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And also, Bulgaria doesn't have copious amounts of oil buried beneath their country, so we'll be leaving them well alone.
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