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Old 03-22-2004, 02:54 PM   #16
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Charles Hagel despite being a Republican and former Army Officer is a Senator I suspect at being weak on defense as well. Senator Charles Hagel got it wrong on both Bosnia and Kosovo. As a Senator, he went on CNN's crossfire and claimed US action Kosovo was going to start World War III with Russia.


John McCain is different of course and I think if he would take the time to examine his actual voting record and compare it to Kerry's, he would understand what the administration is talking about.

Kerry came into the Senate in 1984/1985 on a ticket that opposed all of Reagans large defense increase in the 1980s that bought the new weapon systems vital to the success's of the US military in the 1990s all the way up to the current war in Iraq. McCain voted for the first Gulf War to remove Saddam from Kuwait. Kerry voted against removing Saddam from Kuwait. The record is there, and it does not show that Kerry has a strong record of voting for defense spending and supporting necessery military action vital to US Security.

John McCain is upset over the tone of the Campaign as well as how the Campaigns are funded. He is upset over what happened in his run against Bush for the 2000 election. He has become friends with John Kerry over the issues in regards to Vietnam.

But the fact remains that Kerry's record on defense and national security is not one of supporting vast numbers of new weapon systems, increases in the defense budget etc. His vote against the first 1991 Gulf War and the 87 Billion dollars to fund our troops should raise questions in everyone's mind.
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Old 03-22-2004, 04:09 PM   #17
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Can I ask...why you felt compelled to put this in this thread? Is this some new thing you have putting articles not related to the threads that they do not belong?

This Kerry article has nothing to do with the thread topic.
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Old 03-22-2004, 04:18 PM   #18
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Dread,

If you are referring to me<-


I think I may be getting a little “senile”.


I should have posted my last post in the Kerry betrays troops thread. sorry
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Old 03-22-2004, 04:34 PM   #19
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I think I may be getting a little “senile”.


Come on, a guy your age? LOL

I can relate oh boy can I relate.
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Old 03-23-2004, 11:41 AM   #20
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so what about WMD not being found? It made sense to me when you saw the falling statue of Saddam and the way the Iraq people reacted and the icing on the cake was the capture of Saddam lets face it, he IS the WMD!
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Old 03-23-2004, 12:03 PM   #21
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so what about WMD not being found?
So what? The war was sold to people on the basis of that Iraq had WMD, not on the basis of Saddam being a bad person, not on the basis of the Iraqi people being better off without him, but on the basis that Iraq possessed WMD. It is entirely legitimate for people to express concern about the fact that no WMD have been found, given that the supposed evidence of Iraq's possession of WMD was used as a justification for the war.

My government attacked a sovereign state. They claimed their reason for it was that country's possession of WMD. Since the "end" of the war, they have produced not one scrap of evidence for this. I have every right to be concerned about this and to expect that this government produce evidence which proves they did not lie to the people of this country about their reasons for going to war.
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Old 03-23-2004, 12:10 PM   #22
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Originally posted by what a bomb!
so what about WMD not being found? It made sense to me when you saw the falling statue of Saddam and the way the Iraq people reacted and the icing on the cake was the capture of Saddam lets face it, he IS the WMD!
So it's okay that the Bush administration lied to us? That it went from this being a war for WMD's that have never been found, to a war for liberating Iraq.

Let's say we found WMD's a week after the collapse of Baghdad: Would there have been any mention of the liberating of the Iraqi people? Or was "operation Iraqi Freedom" a cover up for "Operation Can't find WMD's so we'll change the words around and maybe put in the word FREEDOM, cause most of America sympathizes with that word"

Yeah, Let's have a toast. A toast to terrorist bombings, killing American Soldiers every day, killing 200 spaniards, killing thousands of innocent Iraqis for the FREEDOM the LIBERATION. Yeah let's raise our "guiness" to that! It's bullsh*t if you ask me...

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Old 03-23-2004, 01:31 PM   #23
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Originally posted by FizzingWhizzbees


So what? The war was sold to people on the basis of that Iraq had WMD, not on the basis of Saddam being a bad person, not on the basis of the Iraqi people being better off without him, but on the basis that Iraq possessed WMD. It is entirely legitimate for people to express concern about the fact that no WMD have been found, given that the supposed evidence of Iraq's possession of WMD was used as a justification for the war.

My government attacked a sovereign state. They claimed their reason for it was that country's possession of WMD. Since the "end" of the war, they have produced not one scrap of evidence for this. I have every right to be concerned about this and to expect that this government produce evidence which proves they did not lie to the people of this country about their reasons for going to war.
There are several countries that have WMD. WMD is not the lone reason for military action in Iraq. It was Saddam + WMD.
Saddam was required by the United Nations to VERIFIABLY DISARM of all WMD. Over 17 United Nations resolutions were passed against him and he violated them all. 12 years were spent trying to achieve verifiable disarmament without regime removal and all of the efforts failed. I find it shocking that after Saddam invaded and attacked 4 different countries and murdered 1.7 million people, that there are people unwilling to what is required to remove this threat to the region.

To this day, Saddam has yet to account for mass stocks of WMD that UN inspectors know he had. The fact that these stocks have not been found does not mean they do not exist.

Dr. Kay's team went into Iraq and found over 300 items related to the production and storing of WMD that were in TOTAL VIOLATION of resolution 1441 which authorized the use of military force if Iraq failed to comply.

The only one that has lied through this entire process is Saddam. But it seems some people would rather ignore his serious violations and threats to international security. They protest the war, but offer no NEW alternative that can be demonstrated to be able to solve the problem short of the use of military force.
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Old 03-23-2004, 01:37 PM   #24
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Who will we be liberating next?
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Old 03-23-2004, 01:43 PM   #25
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Originally posted by tackleberry


So it's okay that the Bush administration lied to us? That it went from this being a war for WMD's that have never been found, to a war for liberating Iraq.

Let's say we found WMD's a week after the collapse of Baghdad: Would there have been any mention of the liberating of the Iraqi people? Or was "operation Iraqi Freedom" a cover up for "Operation Can't find WMD's so we'll change the words around and maybe put in the word FREEDOM, cause most of America sympathizes with that word"

Yeah, Let's have a toast. A toast to terrorist bombings, killing American Soldiers every day, killing 200 spaniards, killing thousands of innocent Iraqis for the FREEDOM the LIBERATION. Yeah let's raise our "guiness" to that! It's bullsh*t if you ask me...

"Go and tell the King that the sky is falling in when it's not, when it's not, maybe not"
-Radiohead
It was incumbent upon Saddam to verifiably disarm of all WMD. Saddam failed to do this. While WMD has yet to be found that does not mean it does not exist. Nor does it change the fact that Saddam failed to comply with 17 different UN resolutions.

The invasion was named "Operation Iraqi Freedom" prior to the start of the war.

Well, your entitled to your narrow view of what is going in Iraq, but 25 million people of been liberated from a mass murder and for the first time in history have the opportunity for democracy. GDP is up 33%, schools and roads are being built. Electricty and Power are better than they have been in over a decade. The list of great work men and women from around the world are doing to build the Iraqi nation is huge.

In addition, the Persian Gulf region has never been more secure than it is today with Saddam regime and military removed and destroyed. Building a new Democracy in Iraq will have incaculable benefits for the entire region.

Yep I will raise my glass and toast that. These things would not be possible without the removal of Saddam!
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Old 03-23-2004, 02:00 PM   #26
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Agreed. A toast to the new Iraq- May democracy flourish and serve as hope to all those in the Middle East who hope for the same. I hope the Iranians do not give up in their struggle. Let's stop thinking about ourselves for a minute and imagine life under such repressive regimes. And for all those relativists out there who say that "democracy is not for everyone" let's find a totalitarian, Communist, autocratic, etc. country out there where people are trying to go instead of wanting to leave.
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Old 03-23-2004, 03:11 PM   #27
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May democracy flourish and serve as hope to all those in the Middle East who hope for the same.
Toast?! How do we know that any of the Middle East hope for democracy? Why is we think we have the answers? Yes many suffered under Saddam, but that doesn't neccesarily mean they wanted this. I just didn't realize that we asked the Middle East what they wanted, but I'm glad we did.
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Old 03-23-2004, 04:34 PM   #28
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The evidence is mounting that the coalition is making Iraq a better place.
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Old 03-23-2004, 04:48 PM   #29
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In addition, the Persian Gulf region has never been more secure than it is today with Saddam regime and military removed and destroyed. Building a new Democracy in Iraq will have incaculable benefits for the entire region.

Yep I will raise my glass and toast that. These things would not be possible without the removal of Saddam!
Yeah, I would call terrorist acts every day in Iraq "more secure." And the fact that more people in that regioun are expressing hatred towards the United States, which is gonna help produce future terrorist cells. And saying that his military was destroyed is an overstatement. I guess it's the ghosts of the supposed "destroyed" military that are comitting these acts of violence every day. And I guess your views of the area are much "wider" than mine in saying that we liberated them from mass murder. 500 American Soldiers dying for a false cause: Is that not mass murder? 5000 US soldiers wounded for life: Is that not mass murder? 200 innocent Spanish dying: Is that not mass murder? Not to mention the thosands of other civilians murdered: IS THAT not mass murder?

Violence does not expel violence.

The American public was under the impression that we went into Iraq, ignored the UN, because Saddam posed an "imminent" threat to the United States because of the fear of giving WMD to Terrorists. NOT because we wanted to liberate the people. That became the cause AFTER the evidence of WMD's was not found, or much sparse than thought. So to sit there and raise your little glass to a democracy that isn't there yet, and is not welcomed in the region by a vast majority is just as arrogant as GW Bush landing on an aircraft carrier and declaring the "mission accomplished"
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Old 03-23-2004, 04:59 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally posted by tackleberry


The American public was under the impression that we went into Iraq, ignored the UN, because Saddam posed an "imminent" threat to the United States because of the fear of giving WMD to Terrorists. NOT because we wanted to liberate the people. That became the cause AFTER the evidence of WMD's was not found, or much sparse than thought.
I supported the war a year ago under this reasoning. I was lied to by my president.
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