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Old 02-06-2007, 10:22 PM   #16
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No, and no, and neither are even remotely comparable to forcible penetration. I don't know anyone that's put down a book only to be sexually assaulted by it.
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Old 02-06-2007, 10:45 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally posted by Liesje

I can't imagine ever being in a situation where I would change my mind halfway through, but a "no" is a "no."
You'd be surprised that there are a lot of these cases.

I just recently read a few where one party did not realize that the other party was not in fact their partner, halfway through. Sounds strange, but all sorts of weird things happen.
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Old 02-06-2007, 10:50 PM   #18
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Truth is stranger than fiction!

But I still maintain, rape is rape. If she says no and the partner doesn't stop, it doesn't make it not rape. A rape victim who "dressed like she was asking for it" is still a victim of rape.
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Old 02-06-2007, 10:51 PM   #19
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if I were ever in a situation where someone said stop or no

I would stop immediately

I can not ever remember that happening

I have gotten my share of nos

but they were always before anything began
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Old 02-06-2007, 11:09 PM   #20
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This is probably the kind of thing where we'd almost need some detailed examples to consider, unfortunately the one provided in the article is not very helpful:
Quote:
The murkiness surrounding what's reasonable has deepened further with the Maryland case, which was tried in 2004. The accuser and the defendant agree that after he began to penetrate her and she wanted him to stop, he did so within a matter of seconds and did not climax. Even so, during deliberations, the jury sent a note to the judge asking if it was rape if a female changed her mind during the sex to which she consented and the man continued until climax. The judge said it was for them to decide. They convicted the defendant of first-degree rape, among other sex offenses.
I have to assume there's quite a bit of context missing here ("other sex offenses"?) because based on this brief description alone, I'm having a hard time understanding where the nonconsensuality issue was. "A matter of seconds" sounds prompt, and the wording suggests she had consented to penetration initially. But maybe not.
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Old 02-07-2007, 07:37 AM   #21
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Quote:
Originally posted by deep
if I were ever in a situation where someone said stop or no

I would stop immediately

I can not ever remember that happening

I have gotten my share of nos

but they were always before anything began
Indeed.

Also, women should not be afraid to say no when they´re in a relationship. When they say it, it is clear what they mean. If they don´t, a man might be too stupid to realize she means "no" when he is hot.
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Old 02-07-2007, 08:34 AM   #22
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The murkiness surrounding what's reasonable has deepened further with the Maryland case, which was tried in 2004. The accuser and the defendant agree that after he began to penetrate her and she wanted him to stop, he did so within a matter of seconds and did not climax. Even so, during deliberations, the jury sent a note to the judge asking if it was rape if a female changed her mind during the sex to which she consented and the man continued until climax. The judge said it was for them to decide. They convicted the defendant of first-degree rape, among other sex offenses.
I have some difficulties to understand this.
So they started, she said no after a while, he stopped, and didn't climax.
But then I don't understand the next part really.
The jury asks the judge, what would be, if hypothetically he didn't stop, and came to a climax, and they sentenced him for that?

Maybe I'm wrong, because in my opinion you can't be sentenced for something you didn't do.
So how long was this "matter of seconds" would be a good question as well.
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Old 02-07-2007, 12:55 PM   #23
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Harry Vest, you brought up a great point over on page 1. People should read it again.
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Old 02-07-2007, 02:21 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally posted by Vincent Vega


I have some difficulties to understand this.
So they started, she said no after a while, he stopped, and didn't climax.
But then I don't understand the next part really.
The jury asks the judge, what would be, if hypothetically he didn't stop, and came to a climax, and they sentenced him for that?

Maybe I'm wrong, because in my opinion you can't be sentenced for something you didn't do.
So how long was this "matter of seconds" would be a good question as well.
I think I agree with what you're saying/being confused. I'm not sure what whether or not one or both parties has an orgasm has to do with rape? Theoretically, a woman who's being raped can climax and guess what, it's still rape. A rapist who doesn't climax is still a rapist.
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Old 02-07-2007, 02:45 PM   #25
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Yes, that's right.

I'm still confused with this article.
It states that the guy stopped "in a matter of seconds". So it is important to know how long this was.
If he stopped about five seconds after she said no, you can't blame him on rape. It just took awhile until his brain realized the meaning of the information, and to stop.
So you couldn't make him a rapist because of that.
If the matter of seconds was more than, say, ten seconds, it is much harder, because he should have gotten to realize that what she said by then. Even five to ten seconds is hard to justify.

But you can't expect a manto stop by the second she says no.
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Old 02-07-2007, 03:47 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally posted by MrPryck2U
Harry Vest, you brought up a great point over on page 1. People should read it again.
Well, anitram and Liesje already responded to that. The definition of rape isn't predicated on the specifics of the perpetrator's mindset (or the victim's precise degree of psychological trauma), and this isn't some unique quirk of rape law; it's characteristic of other violent crimes as well. As anitram mentioned, this is part of why judges have discretion in sentencing. Perhaps what Harry had in mind was a distinction analogous to that between murder and manslaughter; however, the problem with drawing a distinction like that is that then you'd have to establish that the fact of a woman initially consenting to penetration somehow means a hypothetical reasonable man would be unable to stop himself from proceeding if she changed her mind. But as one of the people quoted in the article points out, men don't have difficulty stopping immediately when their small child suddenly walks in; presumably you'd have no difficulty stopping if your girlfriend suddenly screamed "Stop! Something's wrong, oh my God it hurts" either. And obviously that's true regardless of how turned on the man initially was, or how receptive the woman seemed initially, so it's not really a very credible argument. The bottom line is, you've got no right to be inside someone else's body if they're telling you they don't want you there, and that's just as true with your wife or girlfriend as it is of some random woman you might hunt down on the street.

Now there may be reasonable disputes to be had about how long is too long to take to stop or the like, but those are beside the main point.
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Old 02-07-2007, 05:38 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally posted by yolland
The bottom line is, you've got no right to be inside someone else's body if they're telling you they don't want you there, and that's just as true with your wife or girlfriend as it is of some random woman you might hunt down on the street.

Now there may be reasonable disputes to be had about how long is too long to take to stop or the like, but those are beside the main point.
Absolutely-and those are beside the main point. A violent rape is more horrible physically, if you are beaten and threatened with a weapon, etc. But if you think the psychological effects are any less potent if you are with someone you chose to be with and have sex without your consent (and that includes saying no after it has started), then you are wrong. Possibly in some cases even more so than a stranger rape, if it's someone you know and trust. How can you ever truly trust your own trust and judgment (and others) again? If and when you do, it's after much torturous emotional difficulty.

Brutal isn't always just physical brutality-and rape is rape under the law. Rape is already by definition brutal.
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