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Old 04-27-2006, 08:53 PM   #16
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Originally posted by deep
However, "a symbol of freedom and independence" ???

that is just a load of crap by one more politician exploiting 911 for personal gain
Do the words "freedom" and "independence" have any meaning anymore, or are they just red flags for political exploitation?
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Old 04-27-2006, 09:25 PM   #17
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How is this building symbolic of our freedom and independence?


"our freedom and independence"

I think of the 4 of July.

Sacrifices made by our military, esp. WW!! vets.

The monuments in our Nation's capital.




The World Trade Center?

A symbol of International Business, not exactly a symbol of Independence.
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Old 04-27-2006, 09:28 PM   #18
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I also remember when it was under construction,
the first time.

It was being billed as the tallest buildings, rising into the heavens.

A World Trade Center to unite nations in the common language of commerce.
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Old 04-28-2006, 11:50 AM   #19
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Its nice.. but I think something much more modest should have been placed there.

IMO...9/11 was a serving of humble pie. It made the US realise that they are in fact vulnerable. A notion that was considered ludicrous before.

Something like a small commemorative park or something ...so that 100 years from now a 12 year old will ask his father "why is there an empty spot in the middle of manhattan?" Not be like "whoa nice building!

The park doesnt have to be overly simplistic, but it should still figuratively represent the grief of the families who lost loved one.

This new tower seems a bit of a touristy exploit with lots of business dollars pulling the strings.
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Old 04-28-2006, 12:55 PM   #20
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Originally posted by nbcrusader


Do the words "freedom" and "independence" have any meaning anymore, or are they just red flags for political exploitation?


for me, they've been weilded by politicians to such an extent over the past 5 years that, to me, they are completely devoid of meaning within such a context. terrorists hate our freedom. wtf does that mean anymore, if it ever meant anything at all?



it's all very sad, imho. the building is nice, i suppose, but a whole lot more has been knocked down since 9-11 than just those two towers.

i think i'll go have some freedom fries ...
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Old 04-28-2006, 02:53 PM   #21
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I also remember when it was under construction,
the first time.

It was being billed as the tallest buildings, rising into the heavens.

A World Trade Center to unite nations in the common language of commerce.

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Old 04-28-2006, 03:38 PM   #22
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for me, they've been weilded by politicians to such an extent over the past 5 years that, to me, they are completely devoid of meaning within such a context. terrorists hate our freedom. wtf does that mean anymore, if it ever meant anything at all?
Terrorists hate our freedom. Perhaps this is the context in which the phrase was properly used. I recall a political cartoon from the days following 9/11 that showed the rebuilt tower as a middle finger to those who attacked the US.

We may not like a good deal of the politics that go along with such sentiments, but there is a valid statement in standing for freedom and independence from the threats represented by terrorism.
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Old 04-28-2006, 03:56 PM   #23
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We may not like a good deal of the politics that go along with such sentiments, but there is a valid statement in standing for freedom and independence from the threats represented by terrorism.


but i don't think they hate our freedom. they might resent that freedom (and what kind of freedom are we talking about?), but i don't think they *hate* that freedom -- i think they hate much of our foreign policy, mostly because it provides a very convenient way to explain the failure of many of the societies from which they come, and we're not totally faultless in that rubric, either.
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Old 04-28-2006, 04:01 PM   #24
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Originally posted by Irvine511
but i don't think they hate our freedom. they might resent that freedom (and what kind of freedom are we talking about?), but i don't think they *hate* that freedom -- i think they hate much of our foreign policy, mostly because it provides a very convenient way to explain the failure of many of the societies from which they come, and we're not totally faultless in that rubric, either.
No. It is not a simple matter of foreign policy - in fact, I really don't think it comes into play at the grass roots level. Western values have been suspect for decades in the Middle East. It has been a consistent message from the Imans. My wife's family lived it for over 7 years in Saudi.
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Old 04-28-2006, 04:14 PM   #25
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No. It is not a simple matter of foreign policy - in fact, I really don't think it comes into play at the grass roots level. Western values have been suspect for decades in the Middle East. It has been a consistent message from the Imans. My wife's family lived it for over 7 years in Saudi.


i agree that it's not as simple as foreign policy, but the conflation with the values you mention as well as foreign policy, and the fact that many Islamic nations are in really tough shape economically (and they were once great nations with proud, powerful histories). the US becomes a very easy target upon which to pin blame, and we are not entirely blameless.

so i don't think it's freedom that makes one fly an airplane into a tower.
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Old 04-28-2006, 08:26 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511
but i don't think they hate our freedom. they might resent that freedom (and what kind of freedom are we talking about?), but i don't think they *hate* that freedom -- i think they hate much of our foreign policy, mostly because it provides a very convenient way to explain the failure of many of the societies from which they come, and we're not totally faultless in that rubric, either.
Freedorm, read individual liberty: the placing of the individual above all else. A concept completely irreconcilable with universal submission to one God.
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Old 04-28-2006, 09:08 PM   #27
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Well....from the rendering {photo} it does appear to be a tower.

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Old 04-28-2006, 09:15 PM   #28
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Strange.....but my posting above edited at approximately 9:11 EST.

It often intrigues me how my postings date into the future {time differential}.

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Old 04-29-2006, 12:25 AM   #29
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Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511
i agree that it's not as simple as foreign policy, but the conflation with the values you mention as well as foreign policy, and the fact that many Islamic nations are in really tough shape economically (and they were once great nations with proud, powerful histories). the US becomes a very easy target upon which to pin blame, and we are not entirely blameless.
I understand what you are saying, but it sounds as if it is the mindset as seen through the modern Western perspective.
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Old 04-29-2006, 02:27 AM   #30
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