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Old 03-05-2005, 11:12 PM   #166
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Originally posted by Moonlit_Angel
I understand what you're saying, Angela (and thanks for the support and appreciation)-yeah, believe me, I certainly wouldn't wish harm on people, either-I think it sucks that there is still that mentality in some ways that if a woman dresses a certain way she's asking for whatever a guy does to her, but sadly, it still does exist.

However, people mentioned Europe allowing for nude beaches, and then there was sulawesigirl4's post about her area of the world that allowed for that stuff, and she said that there wasn't any increase in that kind of behavior there, and I don't recall ever hearing about big outbreaks of harassment in Europe either (any of our European friends have the answer for that one?), so there is that to consider, too.

I'm sorry if this appears as though I'm picking apart every point you are making, I dont mean it to be lol
The points you and Sula make about Europe and Africa are spot on for those regions. I do agree, but (sorry here's the 'but' lol) is societal perception the same in those areas as America? I ask this perhaps as naively as I would in asking if Europe or Africa had issues of their own in this. If asked about Australia, I'd be hesitant to say we would be ready for it. We're fairly laid back, but I dont think we're ready for the uber liberal reality which is portrayed in a stereotype about Europe for example.
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Old 03-06-2005, 08:35 AM   #167
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Macfistowannabe, all we're asking is that girls be treated exactly the same way guys are in regards to this issue-either both sexes cover up or both sexes are free to expose whatever they want to expose. It's a very simple idea, there's no hidden agenda here or anything like that.

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Originally posted by Angela Harlem
I'm sorry if this appears as though I'm picking apart every point you are making, I dont mean it to be lol
LOL, hey, that's fine, I understand. Any questions you have about points I'm making, do bring them up.

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Originally posted by Angela Harlem
The points you and Sula make about Europe and Africa are spot on for those regions. I do agree, but (sorry here's the 'but' lol) is societal perception the same in those areas as America? I ask this perhaps as naively as I would in asking if Europe or Africa had issues of their own in this. If asked about Australia, I'd be hesitant to say we would be ready for it. We're fairly laid back, but I dont think we're ready for the uber liberal reality which is portrayed in a stereotype about Europe for example.
That is a good question. I honestly don't know. I know there's some people here in America that hold the same attitudest hat people in Europe and Africa do in regards to this topic, as is evidenced by this thread, for example...but considering that that's not the case with everyone here...yeah, I don't know. Both sides would want their way here, so...

I don't think we should just automatically give up this idea, though-we can continue to discuss it with people and see what others say about it and everything. Perhaps one day things will change. Perhaps they won't. We'll never know, though, unless we bring up the idea.

Angela
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Old 03-06-2005, 01:29 PM   #168
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Originally posted by Moonlit_Angel
Macfistowannabe, all we're asking is that girls be treated exactly the same way guys are in regards to this issue-either both sexes cover up or both sexes are free to expose whatever they want to expose. It's a very simple idea, there's no hidden agenda here or anything like that.
At least you can make your point of view without using tired cliches like "women's rights" and "equality." I'd rather some here would just tell it as it is. I'm not trying to be a hitman, a caveman, or a chauvanist for that matter, I just see the law as necessary to fit our breast-obsessed society. As wild as I find the idea, I suppose you aren't here to play games.

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Originally posted by Moonlit_Angel
I don't think we should just automatically give up this idea, though-we can continue to discuss it with people and see what others say about it and everything. Perhaps one day things will change. Perhaps they won't. We'll never know, though, unless we bring up the idea.
How many here would honestly DIE for this idea to happen? Because I sure wouldn't.
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Old 03-06-2005, 01:38 PM   #169
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do we really have to die for an idea to make it happen?

what ideas would you die for? oh, of course, 'freedom'
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Old 03-06-2005, 01:43 PM   #170
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Let's remember a few names who died for their ideas to be realized: Jesus Christ, Martin Luther, Abraham Lincoln, Martin Luther King Jr, Malcolm X, John F. Kennedy, John Lennon... surely that's not all. But many on this list were willing to die for what they believed in.
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Old 03-06-2005, 01:58 PM   #171
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there are ideas to die for, but then as i said, we dont HAVE TO die to make things happen. supporting an idea is not always a matter of life or death. particularly not if its about breasts
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Old 03-06-2005, 03:01 PM   #172
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there are ideas to die for, but then as i said, we dont HAVE TO die to make things happen. supporting an idea is not always a matter of life or death. particularly not if its about breasts
Yes, but I must test the passion of those who believe so strongly in the issue. Are you sincere enough to give your life for it, or are you just making noise?
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Old 03-06-2005, 05:46 PM   #173
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Yes, but I must test the passion of those who believe so strongly in the issue. Are you sincere enough to give your life for it, or are you just making noise?
And you're going to die for the idea that breasts should be obscene? This is a joke?
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Old 03-06-2005, 06:13 PM   #174
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This has to be the most unintelligent comment I've heard in a long time.
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Old 03-06-2005, 09:01 PM   #175
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Originally posted by Macfistowannabe
At least you can make your point of view without using tired cliches like "women's rights" and "equality." I'd rather some here would just tell it as it is. I'm not trying to be a hitman, a caveman, or a chauvanist for that matter, I just see the law as necessary to fit our breast-obsessed society. As wild as I find the idea, I suppose you aren't here to play games.[/B]
No...I just want a simple, logical answer as to why women's bodies are something that should be hidden, but guys' aren't. As I said earlier, it seems to be the nipples in particular that are the problem here, 'cause I've seen parts of girls' breasts exposed on TV before, and it's pretty much the nipple part that's blurred overall...well, gee, if the nipple's the only offending area, guys have 'em, too, and there's certainly no difference between nipples-a nipple is a nipple-so I don't quite get the big deal. That's all. And if there isn't really a logical answer to that question, I just don't see why people should care whether or not a woman wishes to not cover herself up. It's her body, after all, not yours, so why should you care?

Perhaps our society's so obsessed with breasts because they're covered up so often? People are fascinated by things that are hidden from view, that are seen as "forbidden", so to speak...perhaps that's the case here.

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How many here would honestly DIE for this idea to happen? Because I sure wouldn't.
I highly doubt war will break out over this issue...this isn't a life or death issue here, it's just a few women wondering why their bodies should be looked at differently from guys' bodies, wondering what the big deal is about ours that we should hide them and practically feel shame for exposing any part of them other than the arms and legs.

Angela
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Old 03-06-2005, 09:13 PM   #176
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Great argument.
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Old 03-06-2005, 09:15 PM   #177
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And you're going to die for the idea that breasts should be obscene? This is a joke?
I'd die for a society that pushes higher standards. No, it's not a joke.
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Old 03-06-2005, 09:29 PM   #178
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I'd die for a society that pushes higher standards. No, it's not a joke.
So breasts obscene = higher standards

Sure sounds like a punchline.
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Old 03-06-2005, 09:38 PM   #179
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Originally posted by Moonlit_Angel
No...I just want a simple, logical answer as to why women's bodies are something that should be hidden, but guys' aren't. As I said earlier, it seems to be the nipples in particular that are the problem here, 'cause I've seen parts of girls' breasts exposed on TV before, and it's pretty much the nipple part that's blurred overall...well, gee, if the nipple's the only offending area, guys have 'em, too, and there's certainly no difference between nipples-a nipple is a nipple-so I don't quite get the big deal. That's all. And if there isn't really a logical answer to that question, I just don't see why people should care whether or not a woman wishes to not cover herself up. It's her body, after all, not yours, so why should you care?
There are times when they are appropriate, and there are times when they are not. If it's Playboy, that's strictly your business how you choose to behave. If it's the Super Bowl halftime show where there are children in the audience - not to mention plain old folks who just want a decent means of entertainment, I won't cry for you if you get fined. A women's breast is considered the closest thing to a sex organ, and as a matter of fact, our society has treated them as sex organs. They are used in foreplay in our society more often than not. Therefore, laws have been made to suit the condition of our society. Men's breasts? They're not that attractive, and they are in no way treated as sex organs. I'd laugh at any man who tries to use his mosquito bites for foreplay.

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Originally posted by Moonlit_Angel
Perhaps our society's so obsessed with breasts because they're covered up so often? People are fascinated by things that are hidden from view, that are seen as "forbidden", so to speak...perhaps that's the case here.
Maybe so, but don't forget - you have admitted that reversing the law would not exactly result in desexualizing them. Certainly would not have that effect immediately. It would take many years, we would be OLD or DEAD by the time it happens.

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Originally posted by Moonlit_Angel
I highly doubt war will break out over this issue
Me too. The House of Representatives passed the Broadcast Decency Enforcement Act in a 389-38 vote. 36 of the minority vote were democrats, if anyone cares to know. With that kind of support on your side, nothing much will happen for 'the revolution' any time soon.

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Originally posted by Moonlit_Angel
...this isn't a life or death issue here, it's just a few women wondering why their bodies should be looked at differently from guys' bodies, wondering what the big deal is about ours that we should hide them and practically feel shame for exposing any part of them other than the arms and legs.
And that's understandable to ask those questions. They should be asked and discussed in order to recognize the problems and obsessions in our society. Life/death issue? No, simply a test of passion. I suppose I have a different take on the 'be willing to die for what you believe in' concept than most people. I see honor in that, I think it makes a very strong statement if someone would give their life to make a difference in society, whatever their views are.
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Old 03-06-2005, 09:39 PM   #180
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Originally posted by Do Miss America


So breasts obscene = higher standards

Sure sounds like a punchline.
No, sounds more like you're missing my point. Breasts are still going to be considered obscene whether or not we legislate against indecent exposure.
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