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Old 03-03-2005, 08:08 PM   #136
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As for the thing about men and their lust... I agree that it is disgusting when sexual perpetrators are afforded excuses. I also think that women themselves often like to repeat things like "men can't help themselves" or "men can only think with their crotches". I've heard many of my female friends and acquaintances say things like that, and I get the feeling that it's as if they like to think of men that way because then they can feel superior.
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Old 03-03-2005, 09:13 PM   #137
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Originally posted by Moonlit_Angel
And I think that's dumb. I don't think anyone should be punished for how they choose to look, I think everybody should dress however they want to-if they want to be covered up from head to toe, fine, if they want to walk around with next to no clothing, fine-the bottom line is, it's their body, they should have the right to decide how much of it they want to be seen, not society.
Like it or not, clothes aren't just about covering yourself up; it's also a form of language we use to communicate. And there are conventions in clothes just like there are conventions in the language. If a lawyer showed up at the court wearing nothing but hotpants and tanktop, it'd be about just as acceptable as her addressing the judge with, "yo dude how is it hanging?" Different societies may have differing conventions, and conventions may evolve over the time, but no society can operate without them.
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Old 03-03-2005, 09:38 PM   #138
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Quote:
Originally posted by Saracene


Like it or not, clothes aren't just about covering yourself up; it's also a form of language we use to communicate. And there are conventions in clothes just like there are conventions in the language. If a lawyer showed up at the court wearing nothing but hotpants and tanktop, it'd be about just as acceptable as her addressing the judge with, "yo dude how is it hanging?" Different societies may have differing conventions, and conventions may evolve over the time, but no society can operate without them.
But it's not law. We're not talking about what is appropriate, we're talking about law.
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Old 03-03-2005, 09:45 PM   #139
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Quote:
Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar


But it's not law. We're not talking about what is appropriate, we're talking about law.
Fair enough. Since the word "punishment" was brought up though, the lawyer in my example would surely suffer consequences.
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Old 03-04-2005, 06:27 AM   #140
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Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar

Show me where my actions are insane.
I didn't think you could.
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Old 03-04-2005, 06:59 AM   #141
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Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar
Because I believe in equal rights and believe that the responsibility should lie in the hands of the perpetrator?

You just got finished saying you agreed with the notion that society and women bear the burden of keeping the lustful actions of men in control and not the men.
Both are morally responsible for their actions. Is that principle insane? I think not. I never said men are not responsible for their actions as well. Care to share which post of mine suggested that?

Quote:
Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar
That's insane. It's that caveman mentality that allows sexual perpetrators to walk away without responsibility, by blaming the women for stimulating men's lustful actions too much.
Caveman mentality LOL... I'm not blaming women in general, I'm upholding the law. If you don't like the law, good for you. Perhaps it serves as a purpose. There's a difference between private life and public life. This "revolution" would never happen anytime soon, sorry to let you down. If it were up to people like you, anything would be legal. After all, your take is that morality is none of the government's business.
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Old 03-04-2005, 07:10 AM   #142
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I'm not going to even bother to read the 10 pages that preceeded this. But I just wanted to make one comment. Both in the small mountain village where I was raised in Indonesia as well as generally here in Malian society where I am now living, bare breasts are a total non-starter. Women feed their children, go about their work (which, it should be mentioned is HARD physical labor) in the hot sun totally without shirts and no one blinks an eye, stares or commits rape on the spot. Breasts in America are far too sexualized. I personally don't see what the big deal is.
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Old 03-04-2005, 07:11 AM   #143
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Quote:
Originally posted by Moonlit_Angel

And I think that's dumb. I don't think anyone should be punished for how they choose to look, I think everybody should dress however they want to-if they want to be covered up from head to toe, fine, if they want to walk around with next to no clothing, fine-the bottom line is, it's their body, they should have the right to decide how much of it they want to be seen, not society.
You've made some interesting points, but this is one in particular. Re: not society deciding, but the individual. I dont totally agree with what you said about reactions and someone being opposed to simply look away, as I dont believe it is entirely that easy. Society as a whole is not familiar with nudity being common place so we do tend to notice anyone who stands out, and we could and are physically able to look away if uncomfortable with seeing a bare breast, but it will sure as buggery stand out. As a society we conform an awfully large amount and most people dress alike, not only to the extent of being 'generally' covered up, but even further to the point where on weekends you see most kicking around in jeans and 9-5 on weekdays attire is also uniformal in it's own way. This might be a bit of a chicken or the egg argument as what society is used to is not really what this is about - but did this become law because we don't have familiarity and comfort with exposed boobs (in day-to-day), or did we lose familiarity because it was decided too much exposure is not good? Either way, society now shies away from totally free expression and nudity/over exposure. What we have is a society filled with (for the most part) women who choose not to uncover themselves and coincidently (?) a law which matches that. Now, as the law doesn't include men, this is absolutely unfair. Surely people who believe in equal rights cannot disagree with that, and for the inequality it is worth arguing over - we need to remove inequality entirely, and that includes what might appear to be asinine debates like this one. But back to the point, is society even ready or willing to follow through on this? It would be simple enough to remove this law or to ammend it so that the cover-up policy extends to both sexes, but at the end of the day, we wont see much change in how we all dress anyway as we're all sheep. We love to conform. Society's mores are very strong I think.
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Old 03-04-2005, 07:18 AM   #144
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Quote:
Originally posted by Macfistowannabe
Both are morally responsible for their actions. Is that principle insane? I think not. I never said men are not responsible for their actions as well. Care to share which post of mine suggested that?[/B]
Quote:
that women need to be covered up so they will retain their mystery and allure for the menfolk, as if the reason for feminine modesty is not to drive the men crazy with lust and desire -- basically implying that it is up to women and society to regulate and control the female figure because men are deep down lustful creatures and can't control themselves. sort of a "women, watch your men!" argument.
You said you agree with this statement. This statement puts the burden on women, therefore men give up their responsibility. This law would remove that. This law does not mean women are going to start walking around topless. This law just removes any obscenity and places all responsibility on sexual offenders.


Quote:
Originally posted by Macfistowannabe

Caveman mentality LOL... I'm not blaming women in general, I'm upholding the law. If you don't like the law, good for you. Perhaps it serves as a purpose. There's a difference between private life and public life. This "revolution" would never happen anytime soon, sorry to let you down. If it were up to people like you, anything would be legal. After all, your take is that morality is none of the government's business. [/B]
In general? You are upholding an archaic law. I can think of a few laws that you don't like. That's a weak argument.

And this 'people like you anything would be legal' bullshit. You have me confused with someone else my friend for I've never said that. You've never seen me say that, I may take sides in certain debates, but never have you seen me outright say that, because it's simple not true.

So try again. I'm out for the weekend.
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Old 03-04-2005, 07:24 AM   #145
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Quote:
Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar
You said you agree with this statement. This statement puts the burden on women, therefore men give up their responsibility. This law would remove that. This law does not mean women are going to start walking around topless. This law just removes any obscenity and places all responsibility on sexual offenders.

In general? You are upholding an archaic law. I can think of a few laws that you don't like. That's a weak argument.

And this 'people like you anything would be legal' bullshit. You have me confused with someone else my friend for I've never said that. You've never seen me say that, I may take sides in certain debates, but never have you seen me outright say that, because it's simple not true.

So try again. I'm out for the weekend.
You're a big fan of outrage. I never said men aren't responsible. You're exaggerating on a false assumption that I somehow believe men are not responsible for their actions. When you make this assumption repeadedly, I have to dismiss any half-logic you present. Read my post that stated if you want equality, then bar men from not wearing shirts. You either have a major problem with conformity, or you feel obligated to take the hard liberal side no matter what the issue is. Even if it's a stupid issue.
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Old 03-04-2005, 08:43 AM   #146
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Quote:
Originally posted by sulawesigirl4
I'm not going to even bother to read the 10 pages that preceeded this. But I just wanted to make one comment. Both in the small mountain village where I was raised in Indonesia as well as generally here in Malian society where I am now living, bare breasts are a total non-starter. Women feed their children, go about their work (which, it should be mentioned is HARD physical labor) in the hot sun totally without shirts and no one blinks an eye, stares or commits rape on the spot. Breasts in America are far too sexualized. I personally don't see what the big deal is.

That was my point earlier...thank you for saying it better than I could.
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Old 03-04-2005, 10:05 AM   #147
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Quote:
Originally posted by Angela Harlem
You've made some interesting points, but this is one in particular. Re: not society deciding, but the individual. I dont totally agree with what you said about reactions and someone being opposed to simply look away, as I dont believe it is entirely that easy. Society as a whole is not familiar with nudity being common place so we do tend to notice anyone who stands out, and we could and are physically able to look away if uncomfortable with seeing a bare breast, but it will sure as buggery stand out.
I'm not saying it won't stand out...in this society, it most surely will, as opposed to societies where people walk around with parts of their body showing on a regular basis. I just feel that they shouldn't have to change how they dress simply because of how some people could possibly react to them. While a lot of people would be surprised by seeing a nude body, there's always going to be those who won't give it a second thought, either. And so I just feel each person should dress however they feel is appropriate for themselves, and it's up to everyone else to decide how they want to react to the body. They can be bothered by the outfit (or lack thereof) or they can just shrug and go about their business. But I just don't agree with completely stopping people from putting on their own body whatever they want to put on it. That's all.

Besides that, one reason why some people in this country go so far in terms of nudity is because they know it'll shock people. If you don't give them that satisfaction, that'll lessen the amount of nudity more than outright banning it will.

Quote:
Originally posted by Angela Harlem
As a society we conform an awfully large amount and most people dress alike, not only to the extent of being 'generally' covered up, but even further to the point where on weekends you see most kicking around in jeans and 9-5 on weekdays attire is also uniformal in it's own way. This might be a bit of a chicken or the egg argument as what society is used to is not really what this is about - but did this become law because we don't have familiarity and comfort with exposed boobs (in day-to-day), or did we lose familiarity because it was decided too much exposure is not good? Either way, society now shies away from totally free expression and nudity/over exposure. What we have is a society filled with (for the most part) women who choose not to uncover themselves and coincidently (?) a law which matches that. Now, as the law doesn't include men, this is absolutely unfair. Surely people who believe in equal rights cannot disagree with that, and for the inequality it is worth arguing over - we need to remove inequality entirely, and that includes what might appear to be asinine debates like this one. But back to the point, is society even ready or willing to follow through on this? It would be simple enough to remove this law or to ammend it so that the cover-up policy extends to both sexes, but at the end of the day, we wont see much change in how we all dress anyway as we're all sheep. We love to conform. Society's mores are very strong I think.
I think you're quite right with what you're saying about society-conformity is a very big thing for a lot of people, it's a comfort thing and all that, they don't feel so weird that way 'cause everyone else is just like them. And that thinking can have its good and bad aspects to it.

As for how to solve this problem, like I said, I do think the law should be fixed so that both sexes can either dress in whatever various stage of clothing works for them, or that the law should require men to cover up if women have to as well. Either way, though, you're right, there'll be conformity regardless.

Quote:
Originally posted by Saracene
Like it or not, clothes aren't just about covering yourself up; it's also a form of language we use to communicate. And there are conventions in clothes just like there are conventions in the language. If a lawyer showed up at the court wearing nothing but hotpants and tanktop, it'd be about just as acceptable as her addressing the judge with, "yo dude how is it hanging?" Different societies may have differing conventions, and conventions may evolve over the time, but no society can operate without them.
I know. And I think that's a shame, as there are people who wear suits and ties to their jobs, but that doesn't automatically mean that they're going to be a good, respectable person, just as someone who wore hotpants and a tanktop could wind up making a really impressive case and be a really respected member of their firm and everything. And of course, vice versa as well. I guess some of my feelings on this also kinda date back to hearing people call a girl a "whore" or whatever because of how she's dressed, too-again, like you said, it's society's conventions and all that, but that kind of thing still personally bugs me because how you dress shouldn't determine what kind of a person you are, what your sex life is like, what kind of attitudes you have on things, etc., etc.-at least, that's my view. But society has its feelings about this whole subject regardless, you're certainly right about that.

Personally, I like what sulawesigirl4 had to say about the issue.

Angela
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Old 03-04-2005, 01:06 PM   #148
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Moonlit_Angel, thanks for all the great posts!


I agree with you completely!


Good job

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Old 03-04-2005, 02:02 PM   #149
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Moonlit_Angel, thanks for all the great posts!


I agree with you completely!


Good job

Heh, no problem...thanks for the kind words, it's nice to find another supporter .

Angela
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Old 03-04-2005, 02:05 PM   #150
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Originally posted by Macfistowannabe

Caveman mentality LOL... I'm not blaming women in general, I'm upholding the law. If you don't like the law, good for you. Perhaps it serves as a purpose. There's a difference between private life and public life. This "revolution" would never happen anytime soon, sorry to let you down. If it were up to people like you, anything would be legal. After all, your take is that morality is none of the government's business. [/B]

you might consider spending a wekend at a nudist camp


to overcome your areolaphobia
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