A request...

[namkcuR]

Is there any way the 'memorial' thread with the graphic in it could be re-opened? I don't think its closing was justified. Any form of art is supposed to touch your emotions one way or another. If it didn't make people talk and ponder, it wouldn't really be a good piece of art. Just because some people disagree with the message in that particular piece of art, I don't think that should mean that no one can say anything about it anymore. I don't think there was anything at all inappropriate about it.

 

[Angela Harlem]

I think the use of the images of those who'd died, for little more than a political message was what offended and upset so many. It wasn't viewed as a memorial, but opportunistic Bush bashing with a rather tasteless method.

It can be reopened, but I want to make sure there is enough support for it. I'm not about to decide what others can find offensive.

 

[namkcuR]

I think the use of the images of those who'd died, for little more than a political message was what offended and upset so many. It wasn't viewed as a memorial, but opportunistic Bush bashing with a rather tasteless method.

It can be reopened, but I want to make sure there is enough support for it. I'm not about to decide what others can find offensive.

I understand that it wasn't really a memorial, but I don't see it as a 'bash' per se, I see it more as a poignent way of artistically conveying one's disdain and disgust with Bush for sending those young people into the war. I don't see anything in that picture that is disrespectful to the perished in any way. I respect those that made the ultimate sacrifice. I just don't think there was anything inappropriate about the picture.

Anyway, whatever, just voicing my opinion.

 

[indra]

Is there any way the 'memorial' thread with the graphic in it could be re-opened? I don't think its closing was justified. Any form of art is supposed to touch your emotions one way or another. If it didn't make people talk and ponder, it wouldn't really be a good piece of art. Just because some people disagree with the message in that particular piece of art, I don't think that should mean that no one can say anything about it anymore. I don't think there was anything at all inappropriate about it.

I think it should be reopended as well. War is ugly. War is offensive. It is someone's viewpoint (an example of free speech). Each person can agree or disagree, but I don't think the speech itself should be quashed. At least this requires people to think about it, perhaps in a way they didn't before. Perhaps just the number 1000 doesn't seem like all that many people, but when you see it in that way.... A very powerful image, whether you agree or not with whatever spin you think is there.

And people, if you don't want to get into heated discussions, don't. Really, each of us makes that choice.

edited to add: I do think by closing the thread you are assuming that people will be too offended. I hope that people are able to look more objectively at this. (Then again, war should offend people.)

 

[namkcuR]

Re: Re: A request...

I think it should be reopended as well. War is ugly. War is offensive. It is someone's viewpoint (an example of free speech). Each person can agree or disagree, but I don't think the speech itself should be quashed. At least this requires people to think about it, perhaps in a way they didn't before. Perhaps just the number 1000 doesn't seem like all that many people, but when you see it in that way.... A very powerful image, whether you agree or not with whatever spin you think is there.

And people, if you don't want to get into heated discussions, don't. Really, each of us makes that choice.

Exactly. Well said.

 

[Salome]

this must be what parenting is like

rationally speaking there's no reason to step in and you wouldn't when its someone elses children
but when you're the one who has to deal with whining and crying kids at the end of the day it's a whole different ballgame


I think the criteria in fym should be that the chance of a meanningful discussion is more than likely
I'm not totally convinced that's true with these threads

 

[A_Wanderer]

War is ugly and offensive, I would have absolutely no problem if people want to post pictures of people who have died, pictures of bodies in streets with their skulls blown to pieces or any manner of image that depicts the brutality that war is. I have absolutely no problem with that, people should understand what war is before ever advocating it.

Having said that the use of a mosaic purely for partisan political incitement is not proper, debate the finer points of the issue but please dont drag in such an offensive image. It transforms their deaths into a statistic, I dont think that it honours their memory or contributes anything to the debate.

 

[indra]

this must be what parenting is like

rationally speaking there's no reason to step in and you wouldn't when its someone elses children
but when you're the one who has to deal with whining and crying kids at the end of the day it's a whole different ballgame


I think the criteria in fym should be that the chance of a meanningful discussion is more than likely
I'm not totally convinced that's true with these threads

But I don't think it was even given a fair chance. I think the benefit of the doubt should be given, and I don't see that happening. I feel the same as I felt about the closure of the Hiroshima bombing thread.

Honestly, is there really meaningful discussion of gay marriage, or anything at all about the US presidential candidates? And yet most of those remain open for quite some time.

I think there is an irrational fear of violent death that pervades these closures, and I think that just makes it worse, not better. We should be able to discuss the most sensitive, painful and, yes, even offensive issues. Sweeping things under the carpet never solves the problem.

And isn't the goal of parents to raise children who can think things through? Otherwise, what's the point?

 

[A_Wanderer]

Well I for one dont post any of the more offensive images that it has been my displeasure to see. I will not post images of dead children lying in piles from Beslan to get my point across, or the people jumping off the WTC, or the beheaddings. This is no different, it is an offensive image that does absolutely nothing for the debate other than say that every death is Bush's fault - which is about the same argument as me blaming every British casualty in WW2 on Churchill.

 

[verte76]

I don't know, I really thought that thread was too partisan. I can't say it really offended me, maybe because of my point of view. As much as I don't care for Bush, this one rubbed me the wrong way. That being said I wouldn't mind if it was re-opened, but I know of at least one FYM member, Sting, who would, I think. So maybe it shouldn't be re-opened. Just my purple tuppence's worth.

 

[stammer476]

Regardless of its purpose or how it can be "appropriately" interpreted, it's hateful meaning is clear. It's one of the most offensive things I've seen on this board. Don't trivialize the lives of these young soldiers for political gain, and don't post "freedom of speech" arguments hoping to make another shot at Bush. It's poor taste, plain and simple.

 

[Klaus]

Is there any chance that someone posts pictures of these 1000 men without the "bush-arangement"? it would fit perfect in the "The Toll Grows Higher" of the war forum. I prefer people with faces over statistics - but of course without any partisan-stuff.

I don't think that MissMaCo wanted to send a political message with that and i think that her thread would have worked out if we - the FYMers could sometimes be more civilized and forget about politics for a moment

 

[Angela Harlem]

I personally agree with you stammer, though I dont think anyone on this board is anywhere near the stage whoever made that mosaic is.

 

[stammer476]

I personally agree with you stammer

Hey! Someone agrees with me, for once!

Like others here, I have friends and family members who are in Iraq right now. And while I've been lucky enough that none of them have been killed or injured, I would be furious if I saw their faces on this mosaic. I used to enjoy politics before this election. It seems to turn decent people into monsters.

 

[LoveTown]

I think it should be re-opened. It might be more of a political statement than anything but essentially that's what FYM is for really....stating your opinion on things.

I don't think that the problem lies within the context of the picture I think the true root of the problem is the need people have to tear apart ideas that are not their own. That is where we all need to focus, at how tolerant we are...not at what may or may not offend us.

 

[namkcuR]

It transforms their deaths into a statistic, I dont think that it honours their memory or contributes anything to the debate.

Other way around. By seeing all of their faces, it transforms their memory FROM statistics INTO a reality that really back an impact on people.

 

[verte76]

I used to enjoy politics before this election. It seems to turn decent people into monsters.

I agree. This particular election has really seen the emergence of the political monster, and I don't think we're through.

 

[MissMaCo]

I do not dare to say anything now... but yeah, just something : I've just read some really tough words about president Bush in other threads. I never wanted to compare him to evil. I disagree with people who are being so rude with him even if I'm not on his side. It's all a question of respect.
But I already explained this in the mosaic thread.


Peace... and let's just think of the victims. All the victims.

 

[Headache in a Suitcase]

tens of thousands of Iraqis, from Kurds in the north to Shiites in the south; men, women and children, were tortured and killed after Saddam seized power in 1979.

yes...let's think of the victims. All the victims.

 

[MissMaCo]

exactly how I wanted to type it Headache unfortunately, I don't have access to the bold characters !
Thank you for making it !

 

[indra]

I think it should be re-opened. It might be more of a political statement than anything but essentially that's what FYM is for really....stating your opinion on things.

I don't think that the problem lies within the context of the picture I think the true root of the problem is the need people have to tear apart ideas that are not their own. That is where we all need to focus, at how tolerant we are...not at what may or may not offend us.

YES!

The quickness and arbitrariness of thread closures is very irritating to me. Kinda wished I'd waited on that donation for the new server.

 

[ILuvLarryMullen]

i think it should probably stay closed. It would not turn into the "thoughtful discussion" that it was meant to inspire, it would just turn into an ugly flame war. This is a moderated board and sometimes i think people forget that, sometimes things have to be closed to keep the peace if nothing else, anything can be construed as freedom of speech, but on a moderated board a line has to be drawn where the number of offended people outweighs the amount of civil discussion that can be had.

 

[starsgoblue]

Re: Re: A request...

I think it should be reopended as well. War is ugly. War is offensive. It is someone's viewpoint (an example of free speech). Each person can agree or disagree, but I don't think the speech itself should be quashed. At least this requires people to think about it, perhaps in a way they didn't before. Perhaps just the number 1000 doesn't seem like all that many people, but when you see it in that way.... A very powerful image, whether you agree or not with whatever spin you think is there.

And people, if you don't want to get into heated discussions, don't. Really, each of us makes that choice.

edited to add: I do think by closing the thread you are assuming that people will be too offended. I hope that people are able to look more objectively at this. (Then again, war should offend people.)

I agree with this poster. Anything political is never going to be sided 100%. I think as long as the thread can remain respectful in spite of our difference is can be a wonderful oppurtunity.

Bono: "To be one is a great thing. But to respect differences may
be even greater"

 

[A_Wanderer]

It dishonours those who have died by making them part of a political statement many if not most would not agree with, I think that it is goulish and the thread should not be reopened. Want to debate whether the cost was worth it then start a thread about that but that image did not do it.

 

[Dreadsox]

[Q]Michael Corleone: Just when I thought that I was out they pull me back in.[/Q]

If I may again step back out of retirement.

I would almost defend the thread being reopened if it were not posted in the weeks before the election.

Based on John Kerry's voting record, and the fact that I was impacted personally by said voting record while I was serving as a soldier, I think a collage of the very same photos could be made using John Kerry's face. Since clearly his lack of support for the needs of the soldiers may very well have contributed to the 1,000 deaths. Since very clearly his voting record of twenty years demonstrates a dangerous lack of foresite as to the needs of the modern soldier.

Now I am posting more as an observer in here, but had any one of the more conservative posters posted the picture I described above, a majority of the people asking for this thread to be reopened would have been frothing at the mouths.

The picture is not, has not, nor was it intended to create any kind of discussion that would free your mind.

Can you look in the mirror and say if it was created with Kerry's face you would be able to defend it being here? You could really?

 

[Dreadsox]

To our gracious hosts the MODS. I am slightly dismayed that this particular thread has been allowed. In the past, I have witnessed after some 5,000 posts almost exclusively here in FYM many threads closed. I have always understood that threads pertaining to CLOSED threads were something that is not ALLOWED. It seems that there is a double standard here. I say this not as an attack on you all, but consistency goes a long way towards making some feel like there is not a double standard.

 

[indra]

[Q]Michael Corleone: Just when I thought that I was out they pull me back in.[/Q]

If I may again step back out of retirement.

The picture is not, has not, nor was it intended to create any kind of discussion that would free your mind.

Can you look in the mirror and say if it was created with Kerry's face you would be able to defend it being here? You could really?

No one pulled you in here. You chose to come in all by yourself.

Discussion can free your mind if you allow it to. I find the unwillingness to even discuss issues and perceptions is a problem. You don't have to find an image tasteful to discuss it, in fact, very fruitful discussions can come from the exploration of the most offesive images and ideas. There is disagreement about it so it is closed? I'm sorry, but I don't see how there can be any thread remaining open here if that is the case.

Yes, I can look in the mirror.... I have never, ever asked that ANY thread be closed or ANY thread be censored in any way at all, not on any board. I don't have to agree with the opinion or the intent of the poster, but I do not ever ask that their views be quashed. In fact I have requested (on another board) that a nasty personal attack on me be left exactly as it was written. It was, alas, removed over my objection (and I'm still a bit ticked at the board owner for that -- and he is quite aware of that). I feel that locking or censoring a thread should be a very last resort.

 

[Dreadsox]

No one pulled you in here. You chose to come in all by yourself.

It was meant to be funny...the Godfather Quote. Sorry if my sense of humor is lost on you.

 

[FizzingWhizzbees]

It dishonours those who have died by making them part of a political statement many if not most would not agree with, I think that it is goulish and the thread should not be reopened.

And yet the Republicans see fit to illustrate their campaign with graphic images of September 11th, despite the fact that many of those killed would not wish to be made part of a political campaign they would have disagreed with. Are Republicans dishonouring those who died on September 11th?

 

[A_Wanderer]

I think that each case is repugnant, but only one of these situations is relevent to this thread therefore I stand by my argument - keep it locked.