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Old 09-11-2004, 03:25 AM   #31
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great point FizzingWhizzbees!
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Old 09-11-2004, 04:09 AM   #32
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I don't think the thread is closed actually... Read all you wrote here : nobody wants to end the discussion. Maybe we should close THIS thread for the same reasons that made the other thread closed.
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Old 09-11-2004, 08:47 AM   #33
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I am a very strong opposer of censorship of any kind. I am a very creative, imaginitive, artistic kind of person, and whoever made this mosiac was trying to convey his/her thoughts and feelings and emotions through his/her art. That's what art is. It is a way by which someone tries to create something that, when looked at/listened to/seen by people, reproduces whatever emotion the artist had, in the person looking/listening/seeing. If you censor it by closing the thread, you are thereby discounting the emotion upon which the artist drew to create that picture, discounting his/her very thoughts and feelings an opinions. If you censor it by changing the picture(not saying anyone here did that), you are altering the emotion expressed with the picture.

The thread should be re-opened.
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Old 09-11-2004, 09:03 AM   #34
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Lets try and keep some perspective here. The mosaic has images of people who've lost their lives, using said images for a political message. Political messages are fine, and so is art. But not at the exploitation and expense of the deceased. As for how this fits in here, it's JUST an internet forum. If the internet had the power to silence ideas, then we'd have a problem but one thread being closed on an internet message board is hardly going to change the emotion I'm sure said artist felt when he/she was compiling that little excercise in thoughts/opinions.

It was actually only closed because enough people had a problem with it - like many threads get closed around here. I know some people love to imagine a double standard and some go so far as to expect absolute clinical routine in the moderating. THIS specific thread is only still open because enough people seem to object to the orginal closure. So stop blaming us, and decide for yourselves. We react to one and piss the other off. Vice versa. And so on. Etc.

We cant please you all, so either deal with it or find a way to compromise.
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Old 09-11-2004, 01:47 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally posted by Angela Harlem
Lets try and keep some perspective here. The mosaic has images of people who've lost their lives, using said images for a political message. Political messages are fine, and so is art. But not at the exploitation and expense of the deceased. As for how this fits in here, it's JUST an internet forum. If the internet had the power to silence ideas, then we'd have a problem but one thread being closed on an internet message board is hardly going to change the emotion I'm sure said artist felt when he/she was compiling that little excercise in thoughts/opinions.

It was actually only closed because enough people had a problem with it - like many threads get closed around here. I know some people love to imagine a double standard and some go so far as to expect absolute clinical routine in the moderating. THIS specific thread is only still open because enough people seem to object to the orginal closure. So stop blaming us, and decide for yourselves. We react to one and piss the other off. Vice versa. And so on. Etc.

We cant please you all, so either deal with it or find a way to compromise.

"...and decide for yourselves" is exactly why the other thread should remain open. People don't like it, they can post that opinion and then go on. Same for those who do like or agree with it. To close it takes away that option. And a compromise should be simple for reasonable adults (or nearly adults) -- agree to disagree. We are all very good at preaching tolerance and acceptance of others views, but demanding that that thread be closed shows how well those are practiced.


And I understand that this is just an intenet forum, and it's actually not even so much the closure of the particular thread that is irritating, it's the the chilling effect the closure has on the posting of possibly controversial subjects. I have held the minority view/belief enough that the closing of thread because people object to an image -- no matter how heartfelt the feeling behind those objections -- is disturbing. Perhaps the majority rules, but the minority should be heard also.

Kudos to keeping this thread open, btw. It's important to be able to hash it out.
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Old 09-11-2004, 02:29 PM   #36
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the discussion in this thread is also hardly going anywhere though

as angela harlem pointed out a couple of times already the other thread wasn't closed because we want to silence any opinion (as if we even would have the power to do so)

we do not have the desire to silence discussion on any topic no matter how controversial it can be

when a thread in any way offends several people because of the way the topic is presented then past experience has proven that the thread won't lead to a meaningful discussion
not that a meaningful discussion isn't possible on that topic, but because for some reason that thread won't allow it anymore


no thread has ever been closed because we want to silence any opinion (unless you really start pushing moral boundaries of course), but because in that specific thread real discussion just doesn't seem possible anymore
and then all that's left is people being offended


I find it extremely disheartening when we then get comments we as mods should also have closed this thread and are showing some sort of bias in not doing so
it's obvious that people seem to not understand why that thread was closed so we try to point out that it's not that any topics are forbidden but that the thread by nature wouldn't lead to discussion and was closed to prevent the overall feeling of this place to go well below zero (if you think it's chilling now you might have been surprised how it would have felt had that thread remained open)

I should actually try to find that thread from a couple of months back on how you people wanted Free Your Mind to be moderated, because I get more confused by the week really
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Old 09-11-2004, 03:04 PM   #37
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But what is your definition of a meaningful discussion? Perhaps that is part of the problem. I actually though the discussion was moving along just fine in that thread. Think about it (everyone, not as a mod issue), it could have moved into a nifty little discussion on what works and what doesn't in political discussion, or maybe if it was supposed to be a memorial or a condemnation -- all sorts of issues could be broached while discussing that image. Often great discussions can come from images or ideas which disturb and/or offend.

And where does a discussion have to go for it to be considered going somewhere? So many times I find threads closed, just when they start getting interesting, and that is discouraging as there is still so much to say, but then the opportunity is gone. I generally like to think a bit before I post, so I often will miss even having a say in threads closed within a day or so. I just think that by closing threads (especially so quickly), the opportunity for "meaningful" (quoted cause I'm not quite sure what your meaning is) discussion is lost, and therefore it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. I don't think there was any particulary brutal discussion in that thread which would warrant the closure...differences of opinion, yes; people offended by the image, yes -- but those could and should be openly and freely discussed.

And I do have a clue about the problems inherent in moderating a board. I'm a mod on another...and I've been called evey name in the book. And then some.
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Old 09-11-2004, 03:56 PM   #38
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I just feel like some people here would perfer it if every discussion were G-rated and there was never any cursing at each other or any violent verbal disagreements or anything inflammatory like that. And that's not the way the real world works. If you can't handle an arguement online, how are you ever going to handle one in the real world? Also, I just find it about 'tight' that this site has many, many members, and yet it takes only three or four complaints to get a thread closed.

And, like Indra, I know what it's like to be a mod because I am one at another board.
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Old 09-11-2004, 04:08 PM   #39
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it's hard to determine your exact problem with why that thread that thread is closed though

within 2 posts we've went from

Quote:
Originally posted by indra
"...and decide for yourselves" is exactly why the other thread should remain open. People don't like it, they can post that opinion and then go on. Same for those who do like or agree with it. To close it takes away that option.
to
Quote:
Originally posted by indra
But what is your definition of a meaningful discussion? Perhaps that is part of the problem. I actually though the discussion was moving along just fine in that thread.
the first part is exactly why this thread is still open because we want to prevent that people have the wrong idea of why that thread was closed

the second part is the exact reason why we normally close threads like these because it would be about the difference in how mods judge a thread based on our opinion / experiences / the complaints we get to your own judgement of said thread
and discussing judgement on a public forum with many thousands of members is just impossible


I never stated you don't have a clue about modding a forum nor did I intend to insinuate that and I hope it will help you understand why we don't believe in in depths analysis on why we closed which thread
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Old 09-11-2004, 04:14 PM   #40
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Quote:
Originally posted by namkcuR
I just feel like some people here would perfer it if every discussion were G-rated and there was never any cursing at each other or any violent verbal disagreements or anything inflammatory like that. And that's not the way the real world works. If you can't handle an arguement online, how are you ever going to handle one in the real world? Also, I just find it about 'tight' that this site has many, many members, and yet it takes only three or four complaints to get a thread closed.

And, like Indra, I know what it's like to be a mod because I am one at another board.
threads do not get closed because of cursing, though we might delete the (part of the) posts this happens in

online just like in real life you can only have a decent arguement when you feel that both parties treat the topic at hand with the same amount of respect

you have no idea abuot the amount of complaints we get about threads

it's great that you're also a mod on another board
unless it has the same owner and therefore has the same goals it's a bit of a mute point though
we do not have the goal to teach people how to debate in real life we just want to give political issues etc a place in a U2 community
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