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Old 03-12-2001, 11:16 PM   #61
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Melon, I agree with you that the crucifixes et al HELP people in their religion. I think that in the Old Testament days, the reason why there were so many rituals and such was that people were still immature in their understanding of God. When I say 'immature', I don't mean that they were less godly, just that Man's ("Person's" for the politically correct? ) idea of God had not developed as much as they have now.

But I also agree with Debbie in that crucifixes, bleeding Mary statues, stigmatas (I added a few eg.s of my own) etc. can in fact lead people astray; as in, they would lend their focus to the images themselves rather than to Jesus.

Thus it is a fine line to walk when one needs the help of crufixes, rituals, miracles etc. in leading their spiritual lives.


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"Please--tame me!" he said. "I want to, very much," the little prince replied. "But I have not much time. I have friends to discover, and a great many things to understand." "One only understands the things that one tames," said the fox.

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Old 09-02-2001, 02:04 AM   #62
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The display of the crucifixion of Jesus was always shown in Christendom in order to educate the masses and remind them of that moment all the time..in order to move them to reverence for Jesus. However, it does teach idolatry when you kiss the feet or bow down to that image! Thus the hypocrisy.

The "miraculous" crying of statues just serves the believer's desire to have VISUAL evidence of Holy Spirit being active in and round a certain place of worship....it's commonly the stamp of approval of a church to have an object ( a piller, stained cloth, cup of the covenent, etc.) that has divine powers. It's superstition and not very reasonable based on Jesus's teachings of worshipping God "in spirit and truth". However, Christendom ignored this teaching in order to gain more pagan believers...appeasing their need for something to bow down to...which they were used to doing before they were "converted".

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Old 09-02-2001, 02:29 PM   #63
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Quote:
Originally posted by Angell:


Dream Wanderer--in the OT it specifically states that if a man claims that his wife was not a virgin, and it turns out she was not--she was stoned. The sex laws in the OT are sverely slanted to favor the males, but they are there, sex was not allowed (for females at least) before marriage. Joseph even thought of leaving Mary when he found out she was pregnant, because he knew it wasn't his, and did not want to be dishonored by marrying a non-virgin. God convinced him otherwise.


The instances you are speaking of if is the woman had sex with a man while she was engaged to the accuser..infidelity during the engagement time was the same as adultery in those days..Joseph thought Mary was unfaithful during the engagement period..

I have had Jewish friends agree with me on this point of the law.....a single non commited man...and a single non commited woman were not stoned...the man either married the girl or paid the guy a fine...
Now if the girl passed herself off as a virgin...when she was not...that is is a different issue...and it has to do with fraud and not with sex...

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Old 09-02-2001, 05:51 PM   #64
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Yes, I am a Jehovah's Witness.

A cult is a religion that is said to be unorthodox or that emphasizes devotion according to prescribed ritual. Many cults follow a living human leader, and often their adherents live in groups apart from the rest of society. The standard for what is orthodox, however, should be God's Word, and Jehovah's Witnesses strictly adhere to the Bible. Their worship is a way of life, not a ritual devotion. They neither follow a human nor isolate themselves from the rest of society. They live and work in the midst of other people.

The point of this discussion is to reveal instances of hypocrisy in religious bodies and NOT to be judgmental or accusatory. I'm sorry if I offended you Melon.

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Old 09-02-2001, 06:31 PM   #65
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Well, I am sorry I got a little touchy. I just get tired of having to defend Catholicism from stereotypes and generalities. I've heard everything from that Catholics are cannibals and vampires (the body and blood of Christ, a.k.a., the Eucharist) to being idol worshippers (statues, etc.), and, frankly, I grow very tired of it all.

So you wonder why I have a very negative view of Christianity, in general? That's why.

But I shouldn't be taking my rage out on you. It's unwarranted, and I apologize. No hard feelings?

Melon

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Old 09-02-2001, 11:08 PM   #66
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hey Ang, I'm a little late on this one, as always in this forum but since I can't argue viewpoints well or explain things well, this is my simple answer:

God is perfect, therefore he forgives and loves unconditionally.
humans, on the other hand are imperfect, and they often feel the need to condemn in order to feel more worthy, perhaps of God's love, not realizing it's unconditional. meaning, people are probably trying to force others to do the 'right thing' set out in the Bible, feeling this makes them followers of God's word.
please don't ask me about the rules in the Bible, or religion itself, I'm still trying to figure out a lot of those myself

hey madamc, please don't get upset by this but I was wondering if you could look at it this way: Jesus is called the Son of God but it also says that he was God, made flesh and blood to suffer what we humans have to go through and die for us as one of ourselves. I've always looked at God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit as one entity anyway. maybe that makes a little more sense as to where the terminoligy comes from, I think it's more figurative.


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Old 09-03-2001, 01:09 AM   #67
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Quote:
Originally posted by melon:
Once again, when you say "Christendom," you do mean "Catholicism" again, as a lot of this phenomena is indicative of Catholicism.
Use of images in worship certainly isn't confined to Catholicism, though, so I don't think that was necessarily who karaoke was pinpointing. People in quite a lot of Christian faiths wear crosses, don't they?? I guess that's not exactly the same thing, though.
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Old 09-03-2001, 03:09 AM   #68
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Quote:
Originally posted by ]{arao]{e:
The display of the crucifixion of Jesus was always shown in Christendom in order to educate the masses and remind them of that moment all the time..in order to move them to reverence for Jesus. However, it does teach idolatry when you kiss the feet or bow down to that image! Thus the hypocrisy.
While you do say "Christendom," you inevitably mean, "Catholicism," as--correct me if I'm wrong--Roman Catholicism is the only sect that uses the crucifix.

Your opinion on idolatry is just that--an opinion--and it is one that I repeatedly and vehemently disagree with. First of all, this doesn't happen much anymore in Catholicism; it appears that the emphasis on simplicity that originated from Calvinist Protestantism has found it's way into the Catholic Church. However, for those who still do use statues and other icons--and even if they do bow down to a crucifix and kiss its feet--it's not idolatry! Catholics do not see the crucifix as their God. It is simply a visual representation of Jesus, more indicative of tradition than anything else.

Quote:
The "miraculous" crying of statues just serves the believer's desire to have VISUAL evidence of Holy Spirit being active in and round a certain place of worship....it's commonly the stamp of approval of a church to have an object ( a piller, stained cloth, cup of the covenent, etc.) that has divine powers. It's superstition and not very reasonable based on Jesus's teachings of worshipping God "in spirit and truth". However, Christendom ignored this teaching in order to gain more pagan believers...appeasing their need for something to bow down to...which they were used to doing before they were "converted".
Once again, when you say "Christendom," you do mean "Catholicism" again, as a lot of this phenomena is indicative of Catholicism. However, belief in any of this is not required, and--in many circumstances--it is discouraged! The Church has only recognized three phenomena that Catholics are permitted to believe in--Guadalupe during the 1500s, Fatima in 1917, and one more that I forget. Even the most prominent of phenomena today, Medjugorje, has not received approval! Yet, even those three that have been approved are optional beliefs, not required ones.

You are free to believe as you wish, but do realize that religious criticism goes both ways. I do believe you are a Jehovah's Witness, correct? Many faiths do label this religion as a "cult," so do keep that in mind before you make sweeping generalities about other peoples' religions.

Peace,
Melon

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Old 09-03-2001, 06:18 AM   #69
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Hey BabyG!!!!

Nice to hear from ya.

I didn't actually mean to start a war here, and wish it didn't cause arguments, but well...

You summed it up pretty well though BG, it is people that make the mistakes, not God. I still belive there is huge distinction between God and religion. I think they are entirely seperate, and its a human failing. We dont need to go to a church to be closer to God, or to be a good Christian, Catholic, Jew, whatever. And we dont need a name for our beliefs either.

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Old 09-03-2001, 11:45 AM   #70
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Quote:
Originally posted by scatteroflight:
Use of images in worship certainly isn't confined to Catholicism, though, so I don't think that was necessarily who karaoke was pinpointing. People in quite a lot of Christian faiths wear crosses, don't they?? I guess that's not exactly the same thing, though.
There is a terminology difference. The "crucifix," which karaoke used specifically, refers to the image where Jesus is crucified on the cross. Most Protestants just use an empty "cross," without Jesus. Of course, without Jesus, in my opinion, the cross is meaningless.

Melon

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Old 09-03-2001, 12:22 PM   #71
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oops.

[This message has been edited by pub crawler (edited 09-03-2001).]
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Old 09-03-2001, 12:42 PM   #72
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Quote:
Originally posted by Angela Harlem:
I still belive there is huge distinction between God and religion. I think they are entirely seperate, and its a human failing. We dont need to go to a church to be closer to God, or to be a good Christian, Catholic, Jew, whatever. And we dont need a name for our beliefs either.
What is god?
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Old 09-04-2001, 08:38 AM   #73
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That, PC, is the question innit?


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Old 09-04-2001, 10:11 AM   #74
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Yeah, well, I was just curious about what you thought.

I wouldn't argue with you much 'cause I'm an Episcopalian. We rock.



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Old 09-04-2001, 04:18 PM   #75
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Quote:
Originally posted by Angela Harlem:
I still belive there is huge distinction between God and religion. I think they are entirely seperate, and its a human failing. We dont need to go to a church to be closer to God, or to be a good Christian, Catholic, Jew, whatever. And we dont need a name for our beliefs either.
I couldn't have said it better myself. I'm not a regular church-goer but I do like to show up once in awhile because God is so tangible there, not in all the tradition or ceremony but in the blind belief of so many people. of course, God can be found in many other places too, and I don't believe in a specific denomination, that's why i wasn't confirmed.
anyway, I've always wondered, people in different parts of the world have different views, different lives, different experiences, right? so if religion is man-made, why can't all religions be worshipping one God? after all, wasn't the Christian Bible written by humans, flesh and blood, just like us?

it all comes down to this, I think: God is what He is to you



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