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Old 03-06-2001, 07:51 AM   #16
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Eventhough Christianity condones "mystical" powers, G-d itself creates miracles...and the Roman Catholic church knows this... there are many shrines dedicated to the "healed" at religious relics (I have visited many).

I have heard stories like that in my family also, faith had something to do with it. If you know there's a divine force, it will help you, notice I did not use the term "beLIEve"...when you believe, you are easily swayed, and begin to doubt.

Obviously, you diemen, you don't beLIEve, because you don't have any doubts, so you just know that the "Virgin Mary" (one of the "images" that Christianity gave to help people better understand the healing powers, and the divine force--I do know that the Virgin Mary was a living person, and perhaps she wasn't physically a virgin--rather, someone who had pure thoughts, because she was always one with G-d...she was always aware of its presence...thus "being one" is also a sexual term...hence getting impregnated by G-d. The way the Bible is written can be interpreted literally, or in other ways as well. I was taught the literal way--which I think truly limits a person's thoughts!)helped your family.



[This message has been edited by madamc (edited 03-06-2001).]
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Old 03-06-2001, 08:34 AM   #17
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I get tired of repeating this over and over...but the Bible doesn't have a lot to say about sex between single people....its not there...

In the OT...if a single man had sex with a single woman...there was no stoning...he either married the girl or paid her dad a fine...

If engaged couples had sex...again it was legal...they had a contract more binding that today's engagements...you had to go to court to break it...

In the NT we are told to flee fornication...but the meaning of that word is disputed...some have told me the literal meaning is a man is not to have sex with a married woman...and some believe it means the equivelent of today's term 'sex addiction'....it is apparently not talking about a single sex act with your boyfriend....

Now after marriage...it is a big deal. The marriage bed should be considered 'pure' and be undefiled...it says nothing about what comes before...

So I think it would be better if people would look to what the Bible actually says....before they start putting restrictions on people...

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at times I felt that I had come a long way only to find that which I sought the most was something I had left behind.

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Old 03-06-2001, 09:56 AM   #18
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Angela...i wasn't responding to your original question...but rather madame's response...i'm really sorry that I wasn't more specific, I just felt that Madame's comments were painting me with a broad stroke, not your question!
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Old 03-06-2001, 11:34 AM   #19
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FYI, "G-d" is how the Jewish community writes "God," because, from what I have surmised from Biblical and social tradition, it is blasphemy to write the name of our Lord. It is a sign of respect. Hence, just the omission of the 'o' makes it a recognizable word as "God" minus any blasphemy. The "real name" of God, actually, is lost for those same reasons. The name, "Yahweh," is a modern interpretation of a non-blasphemous spelling, "YHWH." Whether that stands for four words or that letters should be in-between those is forever lost.

I just find it intriguing that madamc, who wrote that she is Roman Catholic, uses the Jewish way of writing "God," and several other beliefs (both on the Virgin Mary and including her belief on the origin of homosexuality coincidentally enough) is not Roman Catholic. This is not a slam against madamc at all, because religion is definitely very personal, and I respect everyone's religious beliefs. I guess I would just like to understand where everyone is coming from!

Oh and BTW, I love that quote from Karl Marx, "Religion is the opium for the people." That is exactly why I am 100% for separation of church and state, because religion can definitely be used for evil. However, just because it can be used for evil doesn't mean that it is always evil.

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Old 03-06-2001, 08:08 PM   #20
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No, madamc, I don't think I'm just following a path without thinking. And I don't see how you would draw that conclusion just because I don't like labeling believers as sheep. If someone said that to me, I would infer that they don't like that because they do think about their belief and they do have questions and doubts that they don't just cast aside, hence they aren't sheep.
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Old 03-06-2001, 08:18 PM   #21
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Quote:
People here seem to forget that Christianity isn't the only religion in the world, and the bible isn't the only "holy book". People also seem to forget that Christianity is like a pot pourri of many theologies, Judaism the most prominent. So all Christians, and Catholics a like, have Jewish roots. Hey, it's the same G-d! There's only one. And your Lord, Jesus, was a Jew, and Mary was a Jew, and Joseph, etc.
And some people seem to think that simply because other people remain Christian, they must be ignorant and uneducated on other religions and even their own. As if we didn't know that Jesus Mary and Joseph were Jewish and that Christianity came from Judaism.

Sorry, but this is turning in tone from a discussion among peers into a lecture from the 'enlightened one(s).' No one likes getting talked down to. I apologize if any of my posts came across that way, but I'm gonna leave this thread alone for now, because nothing is getting accomplished other than posturing egos right now.
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Old 03-06-2001, 08:21 PM   #22
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you did ask, and I answer...

Quote:
And some people seem to think that simply because other people remain Christian, they must be ignorant and uneducated on other religions and even their own. As if we didn't know that Jesus Mary and Joseph were Jewish and that Christianity came from Judaism
some do forget that! and if you read the posts, people only think that christians get blamed for being hypocrites, is because they are the ones who strive for "perfection".

Ill leave this post alone as well, what a great idea

[This message has been edited by madamc (edited 03-06-2001).]
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Old 03-06-2001, 10:53 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally posted by madamc:
Christians are hypocrites: they also idolise! which is a sin They hate pagans, but just like pagans, they idolise.

Thank you, Madamc, for telling me what I am as a Christian! Also, thanks for telling me what I believe and how I worship as a Christian!

I'm always glad when people say such nice things about others, and word it with such class!
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Old 03-06-2001, 11:18 PM   #24
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the topic is about the hypocracies of religion. i gave my opinion. that's all.
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Old 03-07-2001, 12:40 AM   #25
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Quote:
Christians are hypocrites: they also idolise! which is a sin They hate pagans, but just like pagans, they idolise.

U2Bama, Im not sure if I read your sarcasam correctly or not, but apart from the generalisation, if this is indeed true, and Christianity on the whole, idolises, then is a sin. If Pagans do the same, and they frown on Paganism, then that is hypocritical.

This thread was after all about the hypocricies of religion. If the Christian faith is in the habit of idolising, then that,on a technicality, is what they in their own words call a sin. Of course there are going ot be exceptions, and you yourself may make the distinction between worshiping and idolising, but many can't or won't.
Naturally you will be defensive when you feel your religion is being questioned. I just doubt madamc intended to offend you directly like that.



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Old 03-07-2001, 12:46 AM   #26
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Who/what do we allegedly idolize? Sure, the stained glass windows in the sanctuary where I worship depict scenes from the Bible including images of Christ, but we don't go in there and worship the windows or their inclusive images. We "worship" the Trinity (Father/Son/Holy Spirit), none of whom "live" in our stained glass windows.

I'm just trying to figure out this idolatry connection.
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Old 03-07-2001, 01:04 AM   #27
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Putting anything before God is idolizing. That means caring more about money, your job, your spouse, your children, your car, a band, a recording, a trip, anything. Covetness is idolizing--wanting what someone else has.

WO says "Love is not the easy thing, the only baggage you can bring...is all that you can't leave behind." Bono has himself said he believes God is Love. So God is all that you can't leave behind.

That's Jesus first commandment: "Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind" (Matt 22:37)
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Old 03-07-2001, 03:09 AM   #28
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U2Bama, sorry to get your back up over that. I didn't mean to sound as it did, it sounded different after I read over what I said.

Like i said earlier, I'm not very 'learned' on rligion itself, but I went and looked up 'idol' in the dictionary for clarification. It had a whole heap of stuff but essentially this:

i∑dol (dl)
n.


An image used as an object of worship.
A false god.
One that is adored, often blindly or excessively.
Something visible but without substance.

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idol \I"dol\, n. [OE. idole, F. idole, L. idolum, fr. Gr. ?, fr. ? that which is seen, the form, shape, figure, fr. ? to see. See Wit, and cf. Eidolon.] 1. An image or representation of anything. [Obs.]

Do her adore with sacred reverence, As th' idol of her maker's great magnificence. --Spenser.

2. An image of a divinity; a representation or symbol of a deity or any other being or thing, made or used as an object of worship; a similitude of a false god.

That they should not worship devils, and idols of gold. --Rev. ix. 20.

3. That on which the affections are strongly (often excessively) set; an object of passionate devotion; a person or thing greatly loved or adored.

The soldier's god and people's idol. --Denham.

4. A false notion or conception; a fallacy. --Bacon.

The idols of preconceived opinion. --Coleridge.


I use the term idol in refernce to an icon or figurehead. In the instace of a religious debate, I guess you could say the statue of the Virgin Mary, the representation of Jesus Christ -whether in stained glass or painting, all the figures from the bible etc. But in your case I guess you see that as meaning you worship the actual icons directly, which we can safely assume is not true. They are representations of what it is you are worshipping or idolising (in the dictionary sense of the word). So this could explain your annoyance (?) at the response.

I can't speak on madamc's behalf, but I do want to clear up my meaning in the reply I made.

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Old 03-07-2001, 03:16 AM   #29
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Madam, you have a really strange definition of believe if you say I don't believe. So believers aren't allowed to have any doubts? That's pretty ridiculous. I have plenty of doubts, but that doesn't stop me from believing. Faith and belief are intimately connected to one another, and to suggest that in order to believe you have to rid yourself of all doubts is pretty far-fetched. I am sure my grandparents had plenty of doubt at whether my dad would ever walk, but that didn't stop them from believing. Belief in the way I'm familiar doesn't mean totally giving up all your inhibitions and human doubts - but it means that even with those doubts, you know that you are on the right path and are determined to stay on it.

I really don't like it when people label believers as mindless sheep. I never claimed to have no doubts. I don't know with absolutely certainty (hence, without any doubt) that it was the Virgin Mary who helped my dad. But I believe it was.
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Old 03-07-2001, 03:20 AM   #30
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I have one question about the virgin conception of Jesus - Why does the Gospel according to Mathew give the geneology of Jesus on Joseph's side if he was not sired by Joseph? This doesn't make any sense.

Also, what kind of complications would occur during pregnancy and childbirth if the hymen was still intact? I assume it would have to be intact, otherwise no one would really know if she was a virgin or not.



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