A Question About Christianity and the Old Testament

[bobert16]

Hi, I'm in my late teens and this is something that has been bothering me for quite a while, and I would appreciate some help or clarification on my question. I am asking this question from a Christian/Biblical perspective, so for the sake of discussion we will assume the only true "God" is the "Christian God."

I am wondering how people got into Heaven before Jesus came along. The Old Testament is filled with laws that the Israelites had to follow, so to get into heaven did they have to follow these laws to the tee? And if they sinned, they would sacrifice a lamb to regain forgiveness? Was that God's "method" of getting into Heaven before Jesus came?

If that is true, I think it presents some interesting questions. If God disclosed the "path" to get to Heaven to only the Israelites, how could anyone else (say the inhabitants of North America, Australia, etc) have any idea how to get to Heaven? They would have had zero communication with the Israelites, so they would have no knowledge of the only "true way" to get into Heaven. Why would God have chosen to give only the Israelites the "instructions" on how to get to Heaven? If He loves everyone equally, shouldn't He have also disclosed His plans to every race of people on Earth? That way everyone would have an equal "chance" at eternal life. Since God chose only to tell the Israelites how to get into Heaven, didn't He basically sentence every other group of people on Earth to Hell (at least from a Christian viewpoint), since they would have no knowledge of the "true path" to Heaven?

Maybe I am missing something here, but this question has been nagging me for a long time. Maybe there is a simple answer that I am missing, but I would appreciate your help.

 

[Ormus]

Christian tradition states that there was no "heaven" before Christ. This is precisely why there are no canonized saints of those living before the New Testament.

As far as those who died beforehand, there's no definitive answer as to what their fate was to be. The Sadducees, who echo the beliefs of "Old Judaism," did not believe in heaven or hell. Rather, they believed in a rather depressing place called "Sheol," where everyone, good and bad, spent their eternity in "nothingness." Such beliefs were also common amongst the ancient Greeks.

The Pharisees, as far as I know, didn't believe in the Christian form of heaven either, although they did believe in an eventual afterlife that we would then see as "heaven." The main difference is that their beliefs focused on the coming of the Messiah and the resurrection of the dead, basically meaning that "heaven" would be created at the coming of the apocalypse. The Persian religion, Zoroastrianism, has almost identical beliefs, regarding the end of the world, and the book of Revelation is a collection of the apocalyptic beliefs of both religions, more or less. The most curious difference between Christianity and the Pharisees/Zoroastrians is the fact that Christianity introduced the idea of a "Second Coming" to usher in the end of the world, whereas the others see it as a one time occurrence. As such, since the world didn't end with Jesus' arrival, that would be evidence that He was not the Messiah that was prophesied.

But back to Christian beliefs for a moment, the New Testament does hint that the most holy of Jewish figures are in heaven, such as Abraham. As such, it opens the door to the idea that those Jews who died before the advent of Jesus could also have entered heaven. As for non-Judeo-Christians, there's absolutely no discussion of what their fate could be. For the most part, however, Christian tradition is mostly silent on the issue of non-Christians entering heaven--perhaps seen as a paradox that no one can answer but God.

Hope this helps.

 

[Liesje]

Personally, I've never felt comfortable with the concept of people dying and then immediately ascending to heaven (or descending to hell). I think that when you die, you are dead. There is no judgment, no ascension or descension until the second coming, until Christ returns and brings the Kingdom to earth. If I were to die today, I go to the same "place" as everyone who died before Jesus existed, and everyone who's died since. When Christ returns, he will bring heaven to earth and those who are part of this kingdom will be resurrected with Christ. The Kindgom/Heaven exists outside of our understanding of time and space, so we don't need to assume that death and passage into heaven follow some logical order.

I really have no clue if this is supported with Scripture, it's just always made the most sense to me. It answers your question and is consistent with what I've come to understand regarding existence of Christ, his Kingdom/Heaven, etc.

 

[BVS]

Christian tradition states that there was no "heaven" before Christ. This is precisely why there are no canonized saints of those living before the New Testament.

Where did you hear this?

 

[Liesje]

Where did you hear this?

I'm not sure, but the way I've always understood what he said is that saving Grace did not exist as it does now until Christ himself was saved. Essentially, heaven = the acceptance of God's Grace, which is only available through the Christ. Therefore, "heaven" in this sense could not have existed before the death and resurrection of Christ. Heaven isn't really a place or some kind of reward, it's a state of being, a state of having accepted the Grace through Christ.

 

[anitram]

I used to wonder about this.

Now I don't care about heaven and hell anymore. Let's do the best we can here, be good to each other while we are here, and God can sort the rest out later (for those who believe there is one).

 

[Ormus]

Where did you hear this?

12 years of religious education.

Like I said, though, that's the tradition. Tradition also stated that babies who died before they were baptized wouldn't enter heaven either; but times change.

 

[Ormus]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limbo

This article should answer all your questions. Granted, it is mostly Catholic, but most of these traditions predate the Protestant Reformation anyway.

Modern Christians tend to reject the notion of this, for what it's worth, but haven't really offered up a definitive theological alternative.

 

[bobert16]

Thank you for the link Ormus, that does help clarify a lot of what I was asking about.

So according to the Catholic Church, the souls of good people who died before Jesus' ressurection went to Limbo. Is there any idea as to how "good" a person had to be before going there? Could people of different faiths go to Limbo if they lived good lives?

And Protestants' (who don't believe in Limbo) have no other theory describing what happened to the souls that died before Jesus' ressurection? Shouldn't that be something of concern to Protestants?

 

[Ormus]

Just to clarify, "limbo" isn't a specific place. It's a theological concept meaning that the church don't know where God puts them. In other words, they're the people who fall through the cracks of inflexible theology.

 

[Judah]

Just to clarify, "limbo" isn't a specific place. It's a theological concept meaning that the church don't know where God puts them. In other words, they're the people who fall through the cracks of inflexible theology.

Didn't the Catholic Church officially dispense of the notion of Limbo (i think only in the last few years or so)? Though Purgatory is still around, non?

 

[Ormus]

Didn't the Catholic Church officially dispense of the notion of Limbo (i think only in the last few years or so)?

Not yet. It's expected that the Vatican will do so within the next few months. It's still writing.

Regardless, I was referring to Christian tradition, rather than present-day beliefs.

Though Purgatory is still around, non?

Yes, but purgatory has always been meant for "the elect who just aren't good enough to go to Heaven yet." It doesn't deal with the issue of non-believers, per se.

And I believe that even the Vatican's formal abolition of limbo will still leave open the question of what happens to non-believers.

 

[Liesje]

And Protestants' (who don't believe in Limbo) have no other theory describing what happened to the souls that died before Jesus' ressurection? Shouldn't that be something of concern to Protestants?

I'm a Protestant (a Calvinist) and I've offered my opinion above. I know others who feel the same way I do. In our denomination, most people either feel like I do, or simply believe that when you die you go to Heaven or hell. It doesn't matter which line of thought you choose because either way, there is no in between - either you accept God's Grace or you don't. We believe that works are not what get people into Heaven b/c for one, like I said earlier Heaven is not really viewed as a physical place or some sort of reward, it's what happens when you accept that through Christ alone you are saved. We don't believe in the inerrancy of Scripture, so we don't believe that every single Old Testament narrative is factual and a part of history that actually occurred. The concept of God's Grace is illustrated in the New Testament, through the life and works of Christ. The OT serves other theological and spiritual purposes. Whether or not mythical people physically exist in a heaven or a hell is not much of a concern because it kind of lies outside of the scope of what the OT is for. It's like looking into the OT for answers about how to carve a pumpkin.

 

[AussieU2fanman]

How can God just ignore 80%+ of the worlds population when it comes to salvation, after all he's the all powerful one who made billions of people devoid of his word. Christianity must have an answer for what happens to those who don't know his name, just saying 'Only God knows what will happen to those people' is a copout. This is a topic I am very unsure of aswell. Anyone?

 

[Ormus]

Christianity must have an answer for what happens to those who don't know his name, just saying 'Only God knows what will happen to those people' is a copout.

The non-PC, traditional response is that they all go to hell. Christian tradition is kind only to those Jews who died before Jesus lived and those babies who died before they could be baptized. Everyone else goes to hell for not accepting Jesus Christ.

Modern Christianity is seemingly less accepting of such medieval cruelty, and, as such, extends the concept of "limbo" to all good non-believers or ignores the subject entirely. Of course, there's still quite a few Christian denominations that openly believe that all non-believers will rot in hell too.

 

[nathan1977]

From a cursory reading of several Old Testament passages, it's clear that God's plan was never for the Israelite people to the exclusion of all others. (God's initial conversation with Abraham is that through him all the nations of the earth would be blessed; the Israelites were commanded to welcome the foreigner in their midst; etc.) God's plan has always been for all people to come to a knowledge of the truth. The book of Hebrews, which deals with the issues of law (Old Covenant) and grace (New Covenant), runs through a very long list of all the faithful Israelites predating Jesus whose faith in the revelation given them by God was credited to them as righteousness. Jesus himself states that he came not to abolish the law but to fulfill it -- therefore, those who followed God before him under the old covenant of the law were welcomed into the bosom of Abraham (see his parable of the rich man and Lazarus for a sense of Heaven and Hell).

God's plan in Testaments old and new has always been one of inclusion. If there's a fault, it is with His followers who create barriers to God instead of relationship with Him.

 

[bobert16]

God's plan in Testaments old and new has always been one of inclusion.

If God's plan has always been one of "inclusion" of all peoples, why did He (and still does) exclude millions of people from this plan? Why did He only show the "true path" to Heaven to the Israelites (thus excluding everyone from all the other parts of the world)? There are even people today who have never even heard the name Jesus, etc. How can a "merciful" and "forgiving" God sentence millions of people to Hell - simply because they had never heard of him?

 

[maycocksean]

If God's plan has always been one of "inclusion" of all peoples, why did He (and still does) exclude millions of people from this plan? Why did He only show the "true path" to Heaven to the Israelites (thus excluding everyone from all the other parts of the world)? There are even people today who have never even heard the name Jesus, etc. How can a "merciful" and "forgiving" God sentence millions of people to Hell - simply because they had never heard of him?

First of all, you've got to be clear in understanding that not all Christians subscribe to the beliefs you've mentioned in your post. In fact, I'd venture to say that even most Christians do not believe such things. It's true that those that do tend to make the most noise, but these beliefs are definitely NOT par for the course in Christianity.

God does not exclude people from His plan. It's open to everyone. Unfortunately, some believers take it upon themselves to exclude others. This is what Jesus had to say to them: "you shut of the kingdom of heaven from men; for you do not enter in yourselves, nor do you allow those who are entering to go in." Matthew 23:13


You are correct, a merciful and forgiving God won't sentence millions to hell simply because they never heard of him.

I honestly believe that Christ's death on the cross covers everyone--the only way you can not be saved is to willingly reject that offer of salvation. There won't be any people who were lost merely because they were unlucky enough to be living in the wrong place.

After all "where you live should not decide whether you live or die."

 

[martha]

If God's plan has always been one of "inclusion" of all peoples, why did He (and still does) exclude millions of people from this plan? Why did He only show the "true path" to Heaven to the Israelites (thus excluding everyone from all the other parts of the world)? There are even people today who have never even heard the name Jesus, etc. How can a "merciful" and "forgiving" God sentence millions of people to Hell - simply because they had never heard of him?

Don't blame God for what people have done and said in His name.

 

[coemgen]

I used to wonder about this.

Now I don't care about heaven and hell anymore. Let's do the best we can here, be good to each other while we are here, and God can sort the rest out later (for those who believe there is one).

What if we can't believe or disbelieve stuff in and out of existence? You may not care if there is heaven and hell, but what if that's how it's set up? What if those who don't believe in God find out there is one?

Another question you might want to ask is how good is good enough? If we're supposed to be good here on Earth, what's the standard? Even people we may consider really good -- i.e. Mother Theresa, Billy Graham -- believe (d) they're people with probelms who need forgiveness; a savior. Where do we place ourselves on the goodness rankings?

 

[coemgen]

Don't blame God for what people have done and said in His name.

Nice point, Martha.

 

[Liesje]

If God's plan has always been one of "inclusion" of all peoples, why did He (and still does) exclude millions of people from this plan? Why did He only show the "true path" to Heaven to the Israelites (thus excluding everyone from all the other parts of the world)? There are even people today who have never even heard the name Jesus, etc. How can a "merciful" and "forgiving" God sentence millions of people to Hell - simply because they had never heard of him?

Like Sean said, these assumptions make me go and I've been a Christian for quite some time. The way, the truth, the light is through the acceptance of Grace through Jesus Christ only. The life of Jesus fulfilled or nullified ALL of the OT covenants.

As a Calvinist, I believe in Special and General Revelation. General Revelation means that ANYBODY ANYWHERE can be saved, even if they've never heard the word Jesus or seen a Bible. GR refers to the Holy Spirit as it exists in Creation. Creation itself reflects the existence of God, so people can be moved by the Holy Spirit simply by looking at God's creation and thinking "wow, there must be a God for something so great to exist!" Special Revelation refers to the Holy Spirit working through the Bible and how God is revealed in Scripture.

 

[AEON]

I do think many Old Testament Jews were saved. Here is my reasoning.

The reason why Christians are permitted to enter the Kingdom of Heaven is because we are found “not-guilty” because our faith in Christ has erased our entire record of sins. Jesus Christ’s righteousness has become our righteousness. It is this “righteousness” that is what gives access to heaven.

Throughout the Old and New Testament – the only way to achieve righteousness was not by “doing good deeds” – but by faith. I think we need only to look at the story of Abraham to see that he was far from perfect. He was considered righteous by his own merit. But he trusted God. (Genesis 15:6) 6Abram believed the Lord, and he credited it to him as righteousness.

If “faith” in a personal God (the Father of Christ and not any other concept of god or gods) is considered righteousness, then many others in the Old Testament were “saved.” We only need to look at the Book of Hebrews , Chapter 11 in the New Testament to see the “Hall of Faith.” To me, this is New Testament confirmation that ANY Jew prior to Christ, who lived a life of faith, and not merely a superficial display of good deeds – were in fact “saved.”

 

[coemgen]

Christian tradition states that there was no "heaven" before Christ. This is precisely why there are no canonized saints of those living before the New Testament.

Wow. I've never heard this before. If there was no heaven, why does the word heaven appear throughout Genesis. Why is God called the "God of heaven and earth."?

I'm not Catholic, but I would suspect there's no saints prior to the NT because Saints are in fact a Christian concept. (actually, a Catholic concept. The Bible says saints are simply followers of Christ.) The fact that there aren't any canonized saints prior to the NT doesn't negate a heaven.

 

[Ormus]

Wow. I've never heard this before. If there was no heaven, why does the word heaven appear throughout Genesis. Why is God called the "God of heaven and earth."?

"Heaven" is a generic term for the universe in the Old Testament context. A consistent theme, both in Pharisaic Judaism and Persian Zoroastrianism, the two Messianic religions that predated Christianity, is that "heaven" did not exist before the coming of the Messiah. The dead merely lie in waiting/oblivion until the resurrection of the dead.

I believe that this is why modern Judaism doesn't believe in heaven currently existing, but our Jewish members can correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[coemgen]

"Heaven" is a generic term for the universe in the Old Testament context. A consistent theme, both in Pharisaic Judaism and Persian Zoroastrianism, the two Messianic religions that predated Christianity, is that "heaven" did not exist before the coming of the Messiah. The dead merely lie in waiting/oblivion until the resurrection of the dead.

I believe that this is why modern Judaism doesn't believe in heaven currently existing, but our Jewish members can correct me if I'm wrong.

Heaven can exist without people being sent there after they die.

 

[anitram]

Another question you might want to ask is how good is good enough?

I leave that up to individual people to find out for themselves, according to their principles, their morals, their faith, whatever. Let a good Hindu be a good Hindu, I have absolutely no compulsion whatsoever to turn him into a Christian. None.

 

[AEON]

I leave that up to individual people to find out for themselves, according to their principles, their morals, their faith, whatever. Let a good Hindu be a good Hindu, I have absolutely no compulsion whatsoever to turn him into a Christian. None.

Should a good mass murderer be allowed to act upon his own idea of what is "good" and "bad." Let a good mass murderer be a good mass muderer?

Also, you have no desire to bring other people into the "kingdom" because you yourself are not a Christian.

As Christians, we are commanded by Christ Himself to spend our lives saving lost souls and sharing the Gospel. It is not a choice.

 

[nathan1977]

I honestly believe that Christ's death on the cross covers everyone--the only way you can not be saved is to willingly reject that offer of salvation.

Interesting post. I've never really heard that before.

Is a lack of rejection the same as acceptance?

 

[BVS]

12 years of religious education.

Like I said, though, that's the tradition. Tradition also stated that babies who died before they were baptized wouldn't enter heaven either; but times change.

Thanks, I understand what you are saying now...