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Old 04-09-2002, 12:38 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally posted by Lemonite:
No Proof?.. I haven't got the time to compile a list of articles with information, but just a few years ago, with the Peace Convention.. (I forget the name).. but anyways, Arafat was practically offered the world, everything that a man with the intention of peaceful living would desire, and he turned it down.

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The Camp David Agreement which offered 95-98% of the territory asked by the Palestinians. Rejected by Arafat.
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Old 04-09-2002, 12:43 PM   #32
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Originally posted by lady lemonade:
The Camp David Agreement which offered 95-98% of the territory asked by the Palestinians. Rejected by Arafat.

Thanks L.Lemonade.. Also. Vorsprung.. Just reference the last Israel/Palestinian thread where we spent about 150 posts giving evidence and proof...

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Old 04-09-2002, 02:14 PM   #33
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The Camp David 2000 Proposal proposed 73% of the Westbank to the Palestinians. In later stages (10-25 years) Israel would cede additional areas, particularly in the mountains overlooking the Jordan valley, to bring the total area to slightly under 90% of the area of the West Bank.
Also, it would make Palestina a semi-sovereign state like the Eastern European Countries were during the cold war.

The Camp David 2000 proposal:

1. Palestinian Statehood and Conditions

A Palestinian state would be established in most of the West Bank and all of the Gaza strip, with these conditions:

The state would not have an army with heavy weapons,
The state would not make alliances with other countries without Israeli approval and would not allow introduction of foreign forces west of the River Jordan.
Israel would be allowed deploy troops in the Jordan Valley if Israel were to be threatened by invasion from the east.
Israeli aircraft could overfly Palestinian airspace.
Israeli would install early warning stations in the mountains overlooking the Jordan valley and other areas.
Palestinians would control border crossings with Jordan and Egypt along with Israeli security observation.
The Israelis would retain management over water sources in the West Bank while approving a limited quota to the Palestinians.
Israel would lease areas in the Jordan Valley or maintain temporary sovereignty over them for up to 25 years.

2. Refugees

The Palestine refugee problem would be solved in the following way:

Israel would not accept any legal or civilian responsibility for their displacement.
Israel would allow the return of around 100,000 refugees under “humanitarian” grounds in the form of family reunions and considers such a step as compliance with UN Resolution 194.
According to one source, the Palestinian State would be limited in the number of refugees it could absorb to half a million refugees according to a fixed timetable. This is not confirmed by other sources and is problematic, since a much larger number of refugees, well over a million, already live in camps in Gaza and the West Bank.
An international fund would compensate refugees. Israel, the U.S. and Europe are to contribute. According to one source, this fund would also provide compensation to Jews who were forced to leave their possessions in Arab countries when they fled to Israel.

3. Jerusalem

Palestine would obtain sovereignty over suburbs in the north and the south of Jerusalem that would be annexed to the West Bank, including Abu Dees, Alezariye and eastern Sawahre.

Within East Jerusalem, in (Beit Hanina-Shuafat), there would be a civilian administration affiliated with the Palestinian Authority with the possibility of linking it to West Jerusalem through a municipality covering both sectors. The Palestinians would run a branch municipality within the framework of the Israeli higher municipal council while depriving them from planning and construction jurisdictions.

Palestinian, Arab, Islamic and Christian administration of holy shrines in the old city of Jerusalem. The Palestinians would be allowed to hoist the Palestinian flag over the Islamic and Christian shrines along with a safe passage linking northern Jerusalem, which would be annexed to the West Bank, to those areas so that Palestinians and Muslims would not pass through lands under Israeli sovereignty.

4. Land Area of Palestine

The initial area of the Palestinian state would comprise about 73% of the land area of the West Bank and all of Gaza. The West Bank would be divided by the road from Jerusalem to the Dead Sea and a corridor on either side of it. This would form two relatively large Palestinian areas and one small enclave surrounding Jericho. The three areas would be joined by a free passage without checkpoints, but the safe passage could be closed by Israel in case of emergency. According to Palestinian sources, there would be another division beween the area north of the Ariel and Shilo settlements along the trans-Shomron highway built by Israel.

In later stages (10-25 years) Israel would cede additional areas, particularly in the mountains overlooking the Jordan valley, to bring the total area to slightly under 90% of the area of the West Bank

The major settlement blocks adjacent to Jerusalem and in the Jerusalem corridor would be annexed to Israel: Efrat, Gush Etzion, Ma'ale Edumim. The town of Ariel and 8the corridor along the trans-Samaria highway would be annexed to Israel. The Jewish settlement town of Qiriat Arba would remain under Israeli administration in the heart of Palestinian territory, with a single road through Palestinian territory reaching it from the south. Isolated Jewish settlements including the settlement in Hebron, would come under Palestinian jurisdiction and would probably be abandoned.

Now this may seem a good start, the problem however with treaties is, is that it isn't a start. If you sign, you're stuck to it. Also, what would you think of it if you're country is first taken by your neighbouring country, and than they give you this proposal. Also remember that the land the Palestinians have left today already is about half of the land they were proposed to get in 1947.
And I'm not even talking about the legitimacy of the birth of the state Israel, which was mainly possible because of the collective feeling of guilt towards the horrors of the holocaust. Guilt because they weren't able or willing to prevent it and this guilt and feeling of sorryness made the birth of this nation possible.
Also, they had the luck that Palestina was a British mandate territory they could easily give away without minding the original population too much (it were the last days of colonial thinking). They're wouldn't be an Israel if Jerusalem happened to be in East Sussex.
They were given a country by the powerful countries because they felt sorry and guilty. If WWII hadn't happened, Israel wouldn't have existed.

My point? Well, I'm not an anti-semite, but yes, I am an anti-zionist. However, I do recognize the state of Israel and I surely don't want it to be annihilated, but I do think that Israel should be damn happy they have their own country and have no right at all to claim even a little bit more.

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[This message has been edited by Vorsprung (edited 04-09-2002).]
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Old 04-09-2002, 05:23 PM   #34
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Dr. Teeth and Vorsprung,
You guys seem to leave out the fact that Israel was invaded in 1948, 1956, 1967, and 1973. The Arab states and Palestinian resistence forces are the ones that have caused the great problems in this region. The original UN plan in 1948 was fair, and Israels slice of land was rather small compared to Palestines. Plus Jerusalem was to be a UN city. But no, the Arabs and the Palestinians wanted war instead of peace. Israel wanted peace and country and agreed to the plan. The root of the problem has been Arabs and Palestinians attacks over the years on Israel to destroy the country.
Israel even with Palestinian land is very small country to defend. It is amazing that Israel is still a country today given the odds in fighting so many Arab countries with large populations. The security problems that Israel faces are extreme, and the restrictions placed on the Palestinians in the Camp David accord are reasonable given Israels massive security problems.
Bottom line, you have to have an agreement that insures Israels safety and security before the Palestinians can ever have a state. There is no way around it. One can only wonder how things could have been if the Arabs and Palestinians had accepted the 1948 UN proposal. The Arabs and Palestinians have only themselves to blame when it comes to not having a state and war that has occured since 1948. Only when Arabs and Palestinians work to make sure that Israel is safe and secure instead of strapping bombs on uneducated teens and trying to destroy Israel, will you see a Palestinian state. Israels reacts when its security is threatened and will continue to do so. Palestinians need a new strategy that does not involve weapons or bombs but working to make Israel secure. Otherwise there will never be a Palestinian state.
The Camp David 2000 agreement is the best the Palestinians are ever going to get. Their rejection is absurd and shows that they are not serious about peace. Bomb making materials and rockets were recently found under Arafats compound clearly showing that he supports the terrorist movement.
After 9/11, you would think that Arafat and Palestinians would of stop their terror activities. Instead, Palestinians danced in the streets and honked their car horns at the news of 9/11. Clearly they showed that they are on the side of Terror. Until that changes, and until they get a new leader that does not support terrorism, the Palestinians will never have a state.
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Old 04-09-2002, 05:43 PM   #35
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Originally posted by STING2:
After 9/11, you would think that Arafat and Palestinians would of stop their terror activities. Instead, Palestinians danced in the streets and honked their car horns at the news of 9/11. Clearly they showed that they are on the side of Terror. Until that changes, and until they get a new leader that does not support terrorism, the Palestinians will never have a state.
Have you noticed.. that Since Sharon has started Raiding the Terrorist Hideouts as well as the US raiding Afghanistan to root out the terrorists.. There Have been no more Terrorist Attacks in Either Place.

More proof that the only way to deal with these terrorists is with FORCE.. Not negotiating.. Not Cups of Tea.. Force.

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Old 04-09-2002, 06:20 PM   #36
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Originally posted by STING2:
[BThe original UN plan in 1948 was fair, and Israels slice of land was rather small compared to Palestines. [/B]
Fair to whom?!?!?!?!?
In the original plan Palestina was split up in equal parts: about 50% each.
Now how can that be fair?!?!?!?!? 50% of their country was given away to a people that are not from that country. That's like giving away all American states using EST to Gypsies people, because they also don't have their own land, they also suffered severely from the holocaust, they also we're a target of racism throughout history and they also don't come from that place. Sure, there's a religious connection between the jews and Israel, but that shouldn't give them any rights. They have been gone there for ages.

The Arabs never wanted a Jewish state on their territory and have always made that very clear, way before there even was an Israel, but the Western simply told them to shut up and accept it.


About terrorism. It's the only way they have. They don't have an army. Terrorism is stigmatised too much after 9/11. They see it as resistance, and it's the only way of resistance they have. My grandmother's brothers were in the dutch resistance movement during World War II. The Nazi's called it terrorism....it was terrorism, but it also was resistance.

And Israel....isn't Israel committing terrorism as well. Destroying the entire infrastructure of Palestina "because terrorists make use of it". Of course they do!!!! Everybody there makes use of it!!! Or destroying hundreds of houses of people because they suspect that some of them are used by terrorist. Well, the more houses you destroy the more chance you'll have a terrorist used one of them.... Or dragging severely injured people out of ambulances because they just might be a terrorist.

And sure, the number of attacks have dropped since the Israeli actions. No Palestinian is allowed to get out of there house, how can you attack someone that way. But much worse, you're oppressing a people this way about as worse you can oppress a people, taking away all their freedom.

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Old 04-09-2002, 08:38 PM   #37
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Vorsprung & DrTeeth:

(I hate to ask this because I know people will get mad at me for it, but I am only asking because I am curious).

Is your solution the same as that of Hamas & Hezbollah, the total elimination of the state of Israel from the area?

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Old 04-09-2002, 08:40 PM   #38
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Quote:
Originally posted by Vorsprung:
No Palestinian is allowed to get out of there house, how can you attack someone that way. But much worse, you're oppressing a people this way about as worse you can oppress a people, taking away all their freedom.

Based on what a couple of Israelis have said in this forum, it is not much different for them; they can't go to a theater, restaurant or nightclub for fear of it being blown up.

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Old 04-09-2002, 09:48 PM   #39
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[sarcasm]U2Bama, if you're trying to be funny it could be wise to add a so that the rest of us know you haven't been smoking anything.[/sarcasm]

For the record, I don't want to remove Israel from the area but if I could turn back time I would have voted for an Israel in another region.

To be honest, I don't know what the solution to the conflict is. Ending violence and give the Palestines their own state might be a nice start. What's the worst that can happen? Suicide-bombers attacking Israel?

[This message has been edited by DrTeeth (edited 04-09-2002).]
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Old 04-09-2002, 09:56 PM   #40
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Vorsprung,
Palestine was not a country in 1948. The area became a british protectorate after the end of World War I and the defeat of the Ottoman Empire. Between those events there was not an independent Palestine. The first opportunity for an independent Palestine came in 1948 and was offered by the United Nations.
The Ottoman Empire which had controled the region before World War I had an open emigration policy for Jews and Christians or those simply from other countries that wanted to live there. This idea that all the Jews showed up in 1948 is false. Jews and Christians had been living there as long if not longer than any Muslims although their numbers were much smaller do to Muslim invasions over a thousand years ago and a higher birth rate among Muslims over many years.
In light of this, the 1948 agreement was more than fair and gave Palestine its first opportunity of being an independent State. How could that be unfair? Instead because of intolerance and disrespect of Jews, the Arabs and Palestinians chose war instead of peace and tried to kill all the Jews there. They failed and lost more land because of their attempts. Every attempt they make to destory Israel just leads to more land lost and more hardship for Palestinians. When will someone on the Arab side begin to learn from their mistakes?
It should also be noted that the IDF is not a terrorist force. If it were, there would not be any Palestinians alive today. The IDF has enough weaponry and military hardware to wipe them all out in a short period of time, BUT they have not because they are NOT terrorist and believe in human rights! But they also are willing to fight for their survival and are willing to put restrictions on Palestinians to prevent terrorist attacks.
Contrary to popular belief, the situation of many Palestinians is not as desperate as Arab media make it sound. The Palestinians have supermarkets and cars while people in Subsaharan Africa die of starvation and aids on a mass scale. Over a Billion people have it worse than the Palestinians do, yet that don't strap bombs on themselves and go into Supermarkets killing innocent civilians that have nothing to do with what is going on in the West Bank and Gaza.
I also would not call strapping yourself with a bomb to go kill underage teens at a dance party on Saturday night to be a legit form of resistance against Israel's soldiers miles away on the West Bank. How by any sick twisted logic could you think that is resistance? Everyone knows that Palestinians don't have an army except for Humas and Hezbolah. Explain how targeting civilians many miles away from the source of tension is resistance?
You could argue it might be a form of resistance against Israels soldiers on the West Bank, BUT THAT IS NOT WHAT THE SUICIDE BOMBERS target. They target NON-MILITARY individuals in downtown crowded area's of Israel with the only intent of killing as many Israely women men and childern, who have nothing to do with the conflict, as possible. That is sick and the same thing that Terrorist did to my country on 9/11.
Israel operation in the West Bank is taking longer because of Israels attempts to LIMIT civilian losses. If Civilian losses were not a concern, the operation would have been over days ago. The Israely Airforce could easily firebomb any of these Palestinian cities. But they do not because they can and want to achieve their military objectives without mass loss of civilian life. Palestinian resistance fighters on the other hand want to kill all Jews period. Unusually they tend to attack civilians in nightclubs and hotels rather than Israely soldiers that are on border check points or on the West Bank.
I'm sure your Grandparents in the resistance for the Netherlands went after German soldiers instead of strapping themselves with bombs and walking into downtown part of a german city to simply kill german civilians looking for food or going to church.
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Old 04-09-2002, 10:03 PM   #41
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Terrorism is the targeting of innocent civilians. Israel goes after the terrorist while the Suicide bombers target innocent civilians.
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Old 04-09-2002, 10:30 PM   #42
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Quote:
Originally posted by DrTeeth:
[sarcasm]U2Bama, if you're trying to be funny it could be wise to add a so that the rest of us know you haven't been smoking anything.[/sarcasm]

No, I was not attempting to be funny at all, thus, no need for smilies (which I do not use anyway).

The reason I addressed you in my questioning is this:

Quote:
Originally posted by DrTeeth:
A proposal which talks about giving back a percentage of the territory is doomed anyway IMO. What would you do if someone stole 100 dollar from you and was willing to give back 70 or 90??
You seem to be operating on the premise that ISRAEL "stole" all of the land from Palestine, and therefore the only solution would be if they gave 100% of it back, thus effecting the total elimination of the state of Israel.

As I said, I feared that my line of questioning would make people mad; but I do not see how we can openly discuss this issue without stepping on someone's toes.

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[This message has been edited by U2Bama (edited 04-09-2002).]
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Old 04-10-2002, 03:22 AM   #43
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It’s true that Barak offered more to the Palestines than every other Israeli prime-minister but so what??

According to Camp David, Israeli authorities would have been the only ones controlling Palestinian airspace, controlling the checkpoints at the borders and controlling the main roads. Furthermore, the Palestines wouldn’t have had any right to claim Eastern-Jerusalem as their capital. Even Menachem Klein (who was an advisor at Barak’s foreign ministry) thought it was a ridiculous proposal!

A proposal which talks about giving back a percentage of the territory is doomed anyway IMO. What would you do if someone stole 100 dollar from you and was willing to give back 70 or 90??
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Old 04-10-2002, 05:12 AM   #44
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Now, I don't want to legitimize terrorism. I just want to say there's a reason for it and people tend to forget that and just think "get the damn bastards" and they don't really care if there are civilian losses on the other side, because "if they didn't want civilian losses, they shouldn't have bombed us first". I thionk this is called vengeance rather more than justice.
The same problem I have with the actions in Afghanistan (I'm not against those actions), but when Bush and Blair say they're doing the best they can to not hurt the civilians......they're not! They are doing the best they can to minimize the casualties of their own forces first! Of course also in this war some bombs deviated from there original target and hit civilians. They knew this would happen and the chances of this only increase when you fly at very high altitudes (and they also know that). Yet the American bombers kept on flying at very high altitudes to minimize the risk they were shot down. Now this is not fair and against the Geneva Convention which states that a civilian's life is worth more than a soldier's life, no matter who that soldier is.....

Btw: when do I get to see proof that Bin Laden was behind the attacks on 9/11. No doubt it was a complete asshole who did that, but I still haven't seen any proof it was Bin Laden.

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[This message has been edited by Vorsprung (edited 04-10-2002).]
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Old 04-10-2002, 06:02 AM   #45
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Ah, I think I see where you're coming from U2Bama. I should have added that a proposal which talks about giving back less than 100% of the occupied tertitory (so not the whole of Israel) will be doomed in the eyes of the Palestine authorities. I think it's obvious that I personally have no influence over the peace-process so my opinion will never 'doom' anything that's going on overthere.
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