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Old 08-26-2001, 05:08 AM   #1
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A New Lifestyle.

I've decided to go vegetarian. For at least one week, anyway. First I will go visit a slaughterhouse; I'm sure that won't be very hard here in New Sheepland. Did you know that some pigs bite their tongues when in captivity? And my friend saw this picture of a chicken whose beak had turned blunt from all that trying to peck its way out of its coop. If I could, I'd like to know how KFC treats its chickens before killing them. Surely the chickens are cramped like sardines in coops. Who knows? ...

I'm gonna miss eating meat. Hopefully, by turning veggie, I'll discover a whole new array of delicious innovative foods that veggies eat. Try out new sauces and chutney.

foray is rambling, she will stop now, she will eat some leaves.
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Old 08-26-2001, 05:21 AM   #2
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What are your thought`s about free walking
cows ect. I only eat meat of ecologic
raised animals.

Ever been on a eggproduction farm, all
those chickens on such a small place.
I still do no understand why i worked there
for two years.




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Old 08-26-2001, 05:35 AM   #3
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Quote:
Originally posted by Rono:
What are your thought`s about free walking
cows ect. I only eat meat of ecologic
raised animals.
I think the question is not whether the quantity of a species is depleted, but the cruelty involved in killing the animals. The only animal right now that I can't bear to see harmed is the dog, so I would never eat dogs. I'm now trying to extend this compassion to other kinds of animals, even those who seem like they were born for human consumption (i.e chickens, pigs, cows).

Oh yeah, and what's your point about free-walking cows?

I've not been on an egg-production farm, but I did attend a wedding at a pig farm.

foray

[This message has been edited by foray (edited 08-26-2001).]
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Old 08-26-2001, 06:58 AM   #4
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Quote:
Originally posted by foray:
I've not been on an egg-production farm, but I did attend a wedding at a pig farm.

foray
Paul Keating's?



[This message has been edited by brettig (edited 08-26-2001).]
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Old 08-26-2001, 08:15 AM   #5
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I wish you all the best in your new endeavor. I went vegetarian from a couple of weekes before Thanksgiving, 1999 to New Year's Day, 2000. That was pretty difficult. In the end, breakfast sausage links proved to be my downfall. For health reasons, I hardly ever eat beef anymore.


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Old 08-26-2001, 12:32 PM   #6
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My husband's been veg for about 20 years. He can't digest meat anymore; it makes him physically ill. He's a big, healthy guy. I say go for it. I like meat too much to give it up, but I frequently go for days without it. I'm very good at checking labels for lard and gelatin.

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Old 08-26-2001, 01:53 PM   #7
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*covers ears*

la la la la la la la la
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Old 08-26-2001, 02:48 PM   #8
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foray:

I had KFC for lunch yesterday!

~U2Bama
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Old 08-26-2001, 06:19 PM   #9
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I am eating a salad right now because I love salads and they are healthy. I have a t-bone thawing out which I will enjoy later on with a baked potato and salad.

Seriously, I wonder how the lettuce was treated before it was killed, same thing about the tomato, cucumber, olive, radish.

Foray, good luck on your change. I've always believed a quick prayer before a meal giving thanks to the animal(s) that sacrificed for my benefit helped clense my feelings and erase any guilt.
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Old 08-28-2001, 06:12 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally posted by foray:
I think the question is not whether the quantity of a species is depleted, but the cruelty involved in killing the animals
Actually, if there's one thing not cruel, it is the killing of the animal,at least for pigs, cows and horses, of which I have killed
and have seen being killed quite a lot. It may look cruel, but in professional slaughterhouses it is not. The beasts are immediately or almost immediately dead (dieing of a heart-attack takes much more time) Therefor I can state that a natural death of an animal or of a human being is much more cruel most of the time.
So no, the killing of the animal itself is not cruel, the life it had might have been cruel or the fact that you kill them (won't spread my thoughts about now), but not the killing itself, considering the other possibilities. The only less painful way to be killed is by using a fatal injection.

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Old 08-28-2001, 09:35 PM   #11
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This is a subject that is extrememly close to my heart, I myself am a vegetarian and have been for most of my life, my Mother is a vegetarian, so I was raised in a family that did not eat much meat, and as I got older I found that I absolutely hated that 'meat' taste, it physically makes me sick, and I can now taste beef products in many foods, like Subway bread rolls, biscuits, oils that foods are cooked in etc, that 'animal' taste really does not agree with me..........However all of this aside I think that when one is wanting to turn vegetarian you have to considered why it is that you are doing this, is it because you dont like the taste of meat (which in the begining was my main reason) or is it due to ethical reasons.......

I strongly believe in an ethical treatment to animals, as I feel that they are sentient creatures and are not devoid of feelings, with this being said I do not have disgust at people who choose to eat meat or wear animal products, such as leather shoes etc, I feel that if one is aware that these animals are not solely put on this earth to serve our needs and therefore actively seek out products that have been reared in an ethical fashion than this is a lot better. I understand that humans are omnivores and therefore a little meat is part of our evolutionary practice, however the mass production of chickens to fuel the ever growing consumption of the KFCs and supermarkets of the world and the over feeding of grain to live stock, which if it were better allocated could easily feed many of the world's starving people, is just wrong, and there are alternatives, sure they may be more expensive, but if you are ethically minded then this should not be a problem......

If anyone is interested in the ethics associated with food prodiction I recommend reading anything by the Australian ethicist Peter Singer, he is working as a guest lecturer at the moment at Princeton University and he has some remarkable things to say about this issue.......here is a brief transcript....


Do Animals Feel Pain?
by Peter Singer

Do animals other than humans feel pain? How do we know? Well, how do we know if anyone, human or nonhuman, feels pain? We know that we ourselves can feel pain. We know this from the direct experience of pain that we have when, for instance, somebody presses a lighted cigarette against the back of our hand. But how do we know that anyone else feels pain? We cannot directly experience anyone else's pain, whether that "anyone" is our best friend or a stray dog. Pain is a state of consciousness, a "mental event", and as such it can never be observed. Behavior like writhing, screaming, or drawing one's hand away from the lighted cigarette is not pain itself; nor are the recordings a neurologist might make of activity within the brain observations of pain itself. Pain is something that we feel, and we can only infer that others are feeling it from various external indications...
If it is justifiable to assume that other human beings feel pain as we do, is there any reason why a similar inference should not be justifiable in the case of other animals?

Nearly all the external signs that lead us to infer pain in other humans can be seen in other species, especially the species most closely related to us--the species of mammals and birds. The behavioral signs include writhing, facial contortions, moaning, yelping or other forms of calling, attempts to avoid the source of the pain, appearance of fear at the prospect of its repetition, and so on. In addition, we know that these animals have nervous systems very like ours, which respond physiologically like ours do when the animal is in circumstances in which we would feel pain: an initial rise of blood pressure, dilated pupils, perspiration, an increased pulse rate, and, if the stimulus continues, a fall in blood pressure. Although human beings have a more developed cerebral cortex than other animals, this part of the brain is concerned with thinking functions rather than with basic impulses, emotions, and feelings. These impulses, emotions, and feelings are located in the diencephalon, which is well developed in many other species of animals, especially mammals and birds. [1]

We also know that the nervous systems of other animals were not artificially constructed--as a robot might be artificially constructed--to mimic the pain behavior of humans. The nervous systems of animals evolved as our own did, and in fact the evolutionary history of human beings and other animals, especially mammals, did not diverge until the central features of our nervous systems were already in existence. A capacity to feel pain obviously enhances a species' prospects for survival, since it causes members of the species to avoid sources of injury. It is surely unreasonable to suppose that nervous systems that are virtually identical physiologically, have a common origin and a common evolutionary function, and result in similar forms of behavior in similar circumstances should actually operate in an entirely different manner on the level of subjective feelings...

The overwhelming majority of scientists who have addressed themselves to this question agree. Lord Brain, one of the most eminent neurologists of our time, has said: "I personally can see no reason for conceding mind to my fellow men and denying it to animals... I at least cannot doubt that the interests and activities of animals are correlated with awareness and feeling in the same way as my own, and which may be, for aught I know, just as vivid." [2]

The author of a book on pain writes: "Every particle of factual evidence supports the contention that the higher mammalian vertebrates experience pain sensations at least as acute as our own. To say that they feel less because they are lower animals is an absurdity; it can easily be shown that many of their senses are far more acute that ours--visual acuity in certain birds, hearing in most wild animals, and touch in others; these animals depend more than we do today on the sharpest possible awareness of a hostile environment. Apart from the complexity of the cerbral cortex (which does not directly perceive pain) their nervous systems are almost identical to ours and their reactions to pain remarkably similar, though lacking (so far as we know) the philosophical and moral overtones. The emotional element is all too evident, mainly in the form of fear and anger." [3] ...

That may well be thought enough to settle the matter; but one more objection needs to be considered... There is a hazy line of philosophical thought, deriving perhaps from some doctrines associated with the influential philosopher Ludwig Wittgenstein, Which maintains that we cannot meaningfully attribute states of consciousness to beings without language. This position seems to me very implausible. Language may be necessary for abstract thought, at some level anyway; but states like pain are more primitive, and have nothing to do with language... Human infants and young children are unable to use language. Are we to deny that a year-old child can suffer? If not, language cannot be crucial.

So to conclude: there are no good reasons, scientific or philosophical, for denying that animals feel pain. If we do not doubt that other humans feel pain we should not doubt that other animals do so too... Animals can feel pain.

References
1. Lord Brain, "Presidential Address," in C.A. Keele and R. Smith, eds., The Assessment of Pain in Men and Animals (London: Universities Federation for Animal Welfare, 1962).

2. Supra note 1.

3. Richard Sarjeant, The Spectrum of Pain. (London: Hart Davis, 1969), p. 72.


This article is excerpted from a classic of the Animal Rights literature: Animal Liberation, Peter Singer, 2nd Edition, New York: Avon Books, 1990.

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Old 08-28-2001, 11:49 PM   #12
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I think animals definitely feel physical pain, the question is do they feel emotional pain?
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Old 08-29-2001, 04:36 PM   #13
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When Rono says "free-walking", he means "free-range" where the animals get outdoors to scratch in the dirt and see the sun.There's a whole interesting set of statistics as to what it costs the earth to feed it's inhabitants meat instead of vegetables. Can't recall the exact figure, but the price is high (soil erosion, loss of habitat, methane)
The ethics is so complex I still haven't decided, but there is a health issue, especially for women. Make sure you have a good source of iron and calcium in your diet.
Sesame seeds and fish bones are a good source of calcium(turn tahini into hommous)It's hard to replace the iron.Floridex is a vegetable based iron tonic from Germany I think, that is recommended by naturopaths, usually available in the supermarket.
I think as with all things , it's about balance.
Good luck to you foray. Probably by the time you have read this the week will be up anyways.




[This message has been edited by cass (edited 10-02-2001).]
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Old 08-30-2001, 05:15 AM   #14
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Thanks for the replies, guys; especially OzAurora and cass (and Vorsprung) for the scientific info. Another thing that I've been pondering on lately is animal testing. Do you think it is justified? For eg. mammals are supposed to have roughly the same brain structure, so scientists have been dissecting brains of kittens for study. This is to learn more about human conditions and will thus lead to more knowledge on how to cure diseases etc. I really don't know what to think of this. On the one hand, I feel for the kittens (or other animals for that matter) and the sacrifices they make for humans. On the other hand, I'm grateful for all the advances in medicine, so research is a g-o-o-d thing. What do you think??

And does this merit another thread altogether?

foray

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