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Old 01-01-2005, 06:31 PM   #61
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sorry for my english but I try to give my comment:
God or something created the world but they're not responsible what happens out there....the people lead their own life and just like somebody said before it's a movie and God is not creating it's script people are responsible for their own....only nature isn't something that couldn't be responsible for anything.....

but do you think this would have happened in or near the richest country's? I don't think so they've got the money to buy material which warns you for example an tsunami just like in the VS a half year ago I believe........
if the poor countries have the some material as the richest country's I think their would be a lot less dead people because you can for example with an tsunami evacuate those people......

satan??? you know what the exactly word is????
it's flown out from 'shaitan' an Arabic word......which means opponent.....the church thought the arabic language was contemptuous and saw them as an opponent, an opponent of God and the church.....later the word has changed into satan....

and that's why I'm not sure I believe in a God.....
the people has invented so many stories that I don't know what to believe....and it goes on and on....
just like now in the media for example with the war against terrorism they only tell one side of the story
people are stupid always where stupid.....they can't think for themself, are just taken something over from the media or an other source without thinking.....
people always betraying other people and this will continue because it was always like this and it will always be like this.....
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Old 01-01-2005, 08:09 PM   #62
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saying that God created Earth and is now just sitting back and watching, that he doesn't control things, is essentially saying that he just created us for entertainment. that's saying that he doesn't really care about us, doesn't really have unconditional love for every person as is a central tenet of Christianity, and that bad things happen simply because he could care less to intervene.
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Old 01-01-2005, 09:23 PM   #63
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Quote:
Originally posted by DaveC
saying that God created Earth and is now just sitting back and watching, that he doesn't control things, is essentially saying that he just created us for entertainment. that's saying that he doesn't really care about us, doesn't really have unconditional love for every person as is a central tenet of Christianity, and that bad things happen simply because he could care less to intervene.
It's couldn't care less, and I don't believe God shares his plans with you and I, clearly we don't understand them.
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Old 01-01-2005, 09:48 PM   #64
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That's where the problem of agnosticism comes in. It's the fence-sitting, hedging of one's bets. And that's why agnostics struggle so when confronted by an event of this enormity. Believers find ways of dealing with it. Atheists aren't concerned with the Divine implications of things. Agnostics want everything explained to them, and then get get pissed when those explanations don't measure up to their "moral" standards. It's GOD. It won't be explained to you. Ever.
I think that a snotty ass thing to say. You don't know what every agnostic believes, so stop pretending you do. I personally don't believe in a god, but I don't deny the possibility there is one (or more). So I consider that agnosticism. I don't consider that "fence sitting" as you call it, I consider it reasonable. But I don't like be belittled any more than you would for being called a fool for believing. Think before you type.
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Old 01-01-2005, 10:37 PM   #65
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I think that a snotty ass thing to say. You don't know what every agnostic believes, so stop pretending you do. I personally don't believe in a god, but I don't deny the possibility there is one (or more). So I consider that agnosticism. I don't consider that "fence sitting" as you call it, I consider it reasonable. But I don't like be belittled any more than you would for being called a fool for believing. Think before you type.
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Old 01-01-2005, 10:55 PM   #66
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Quote:
Originally posted by DaveC
saying that God created Earth and is now just sitting back and watching, that he doesn't control things, is essentially saying that he just created us for entertainment. that's saying that he doesn't really care about us, doesn't really have unconditional love for every person as is a central tenet of Christianity, and that bad things happen simply because he could care less to intervene.
On the contrary, to say otherwise would be to make a joke of free will. I hate this idea that history must be some kind of pre-written play wherein we all act a part that has already been written and if anything bad happens it's because God allowed it to happen.

Without wanting to deny the POSSIBILITY of divine intervention, I'd consider it the exception rather than the rule. Belief in a loving God has nothing to do with natural disasters or man made disasters for that matter. God never promised only good shit would happen to his followers... in this life.

This is all very selective. Without taking away for a MOMENT from the magnitude of the recent disaster, the fact is if a volcano erupted on Mars, or an asteroid hit Jupiter, would we care less? Hardly. Yet any of those events are no more or less evidence of the natural universe at work. I happen to believe God is the architect of that universe, but to judge it by the standards we'd apply to a human-made machine (ie. you expect cars to be safely built and to have airbags and so on), is a mistake.
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Old 01-02-2005, 12:47 AM   #67
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Originally posted by Kieran McConville
This is all very selective. Without taking away for a MOMENT from the magnitude of the recent disaster, the fact is if a volcano erupted on Mars, or an asteroid hit Jupiter, would we care less? Hardly. Yet any of those events are no more or less evidence of the natural universe at work. I happen to believe God is the architect of that universe, but to judge it by the standards we'd apply to a human-made machine (ie. you expect cars to be safely built and to have airbags and so on), is a mistake.
Heh, by human standards just about -everything- in the universe, starting with our own bodies, could use improvement, I mean, placing a windpipe next to the foodpipe, thus making it painfully easy for anyone to choke on a piece of steak?

I'm not sure what God's standards might be, but they obviously don't include a difference between an asteroid hitting a giant gas ball and an asteroid hitting a planet populated with living creatures. Which I find, well, rather cold.
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Old 01-02-2005, 01:01 AM   #68
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I believe in Energy more than God these days.

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Old 01-02-2005, 01:17 AM   #69
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1. If god is merely a creator of everything, (or as I like to say, the chap who turned on the ignition of the universe and everything as it is known), god is not guilty of killing 150 000 innocent people.

2. If god is of such a nature that he is all powerful and influential, and as the idea goes (a preposterous one in my opinion), an existent that has ongoing relations with, the human race, god is not such a loving thing, but instead, to put it simply, a complete and utter mass murderer, who would deserve comparisons with Hitler.

Now I am an athiest, (or a devil worshipper as some would like to suggest, ha ha), although I do like to employ an agnostic way of thinking often.

What happened in South Asia and Africa last week is one of the most devastating natural disaster's in many a decade, and there is a philosophy that I believe (and I believe everyone else should too) that aptly applies to the Tsunami disater....

"Shit Happens"

We can't stop something like this happening. I don't think anyone will ever be able to. You can limit the damage inflicted upon human life, yet we cannot stop it from happening....

...and surely a loving god would be able to stop it from happening.

Let's face the reality here. Something nasty has happened. Let's forget about this god idea and concentrate on trying to offer help to those who were extremely lucky to survive and extremely unlucky to have their homes in an unfortunate position of longitude and latitude.

Disease is threatening thousands more people. If the Tsunami didn't kill them, disease might, and if they are lucky to escape both of those, there is also a lack of shelter and food to cause them dispair and discomfort.

There is alotta christian yankees in this forum. You believe in god and you believe god wants the best for the world right? Urge ya fellow americans to donate one dollar to an aid organisation. You are a populous nation, and if everyone gave a dollar, your nation would be donating a total of close to $300 million! That would be a great help and is urgently needed. Same goes to everyone, Billions of dollars could be raised if people donate just a mere dollar.

I disagree with the idea of a loving god, but if that's what you believe in good on ya, and i'm sure this god character would love it if you showed compassion to ya fellow humans. They need it.
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Old 01-02-2005, 01:22 AM   #70
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Yes, foray - these days I am far more inclined to believe in energy; at the end of the day it wont have a human concept of morality.

But thats the problem right there. With all due respect, Kieran McConville, I would be more bemused and disturbed if people 'didn't' question their beliefs of God when such a tragedy has occurred. Yes, tragedies occur all the time, but, as Angela point out, the shock factor of this case does make one think.

You gave good examples, but the heart of the matter is if that God is 'loving'. I also happen to believe that God is the architect of that universe, and that to judge it by our own standards as we would for a man-made machine would be rather limited - I accept that. But what I do not accept is that this is all done for our good and that this is all supposed to be done in the name of love.

Love? What on Earth does love have to do with the random and arbitrary deaths of over 120,000 people and counting? By all means, there is probably a grand design out there that we shall never understand, but at the end of the day, God created humans and thus created the idea of 'love', not to mention the image of a 'loving God'. Free will is obviously an issue - but it doe not answer the thread, and it does not address what Irvine asked in the first place; is God loving? How does the recent tragedy show God as loving?

Not many seem to have addressed this question. My answer would be that, if thers is a God, it is not this loving image we have created and assigned to It. Whatever it is, I cannot believe that such a force is loving. I cannot.

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Old 01-02-2005, 01:51 AM   #71
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I think we spend our lives searching for meaning, only to find that the emptiness is what we were, or shouldn't have been, looking for. Whoever succumbs to it, though, 'wins' so to speak.

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Old 01-02-2005, 01:58 AM   #72
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Ant do you think a loving God and an unloving God are necessarily mutually exclusive? Could God do both? If the definition of a loving God meant all we'd see was beauty and love and joy, would we even see all those things after a while?
Maybe the Buddhists got it right.
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Old 01-02-2005, 02:04 AM   #73
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Maybe the Rinzai Zen got it right.
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Old 01-02-2005, 03:52 AM   #74
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If you believe in the Bible, you'd have to conceed that God broke his promise never to cause this much death due to flooding ever again. I guess rainbows really are just refracted light afterall. Or perhaps you could say that there wasn't a righteous person among the whole bunch, otherwise God would have told them to build an ark or something. Or, perhaps God doesn't really exist except in the minds of his believers. http://www.agnosticatheist.com
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Old 01-02-2005, 05:39 AM   #75
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Ant. all I was really trying to say anywhere in this thread is that I don't think this recent disaster, or any of the other examples I threw about, signify much of anything about God, loving or otherwise. There are such things as natural disasters. Either that or God pulls the strings on everything like some sort of puppetmaster, and that I really cannot accept.
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