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Old 01-01-2005, 07:33 AM   #46
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There's a shock factor in the sheer numbers of this tragedy. These deaths are no more or less senseless and unexplainable than other random or accidental deaths. Every day people die for no valid reason from nature or causes which are completely out of human control. This isn't new. It's the toll which is.
Is it some form of population control which nature or God imposes on us? That's just as hard to stomach. Yet it's our egos which make us cringe at that thought. As humans we have no food chain which will keep our numbers manageable. Instead we have disease as our largest killer, accidents, mother nature.

I only have more questions, not any worthwhile opinion to add which can help you irvine.
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Old 01-01-2005, 07:56 AM   #47
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Who's to say this wasn't suppose to happen? What I mean is considering what it must take to maintain a planet, keep it rotating and in proper condition to maintain it's people, a few adjustments were designed in at stragetic times in it's on going deveopment. As cataclysmic as this is, what if this part of Asia or hemisphere was about to dissapear altogether and this plate shifting prevented that?
I know this isn't what you are looking for Irvine511 and I can't explain Faith either. I just know I have it.
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Old 01-01-2005, 09:58 AM   #48
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Here's my spin...
I don't really know where my beliefs are- if there is a creator or a God or small g 'gods', but I do understand that the world just isn't perfect, and one must do what he or she must in order to counter the world's movements. However the earth was created, it wasn't created without flaw, so if it helps to see that even non-human events can be imperfect, than it's just a reminder for me that you can never be too sure of anything, no matter how correct or perfect it seems. I tend to appreciate and recognize small menial things this way. Take as little as you can for granted I say. I call this my pessimistic optimism.
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Old 01-01-2005, 10:05 AM   #49
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Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511
this is a flaw in the design of the thing itself, not what people have done with the thing.




basically, if God has ordered and designed the universe, there can be no such thing as the inexplicable.

It isn't explicable. And no one can understand the way God works. Not even you. There is no "flaw." There is only that which we can't understand.

You can get pissed at God if you want, but don't you have to acknowledge a thing's existence to get angry with it?
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Old 01-01-2005, 10:14 AM   #50
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As a side note, again just my opinion/ thoughts, what one considers bad, another might consider good, so what's right and what's wrong? I don't know. I also don't know if I'm that important to be labeling the tsunami or any natural disaster as good or bad, because no matter what I think about it, it still happened. Was it nature's way of balance? Must've been, because the earth needed to react in such a way because it couldn't take the stress any longer. I'm more concerned more about the way people are reacting to the situation than the way the earth is reacting to itself. People just happened to be caught up in the mix. The victims weren't targets of vengance or hate (creations of human) but of circumstance, yet the circumstances could possibly be traced in some ways to the ways humans have changed the earth's operations (i.e. industrialization adding to global warming thus changing atmospheric conditions that eventually affect people and how we live. I guess I'm saying I will accept science, but not without a dash of God

I'm rambling.
Man, I just don't know. Just be nice to others
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Old 01-01-2005, 10:18 AM   #51
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That of course, is based on the assumption that they are Christians, of which the vast majority were not. The major religions in those areas are Buddhism, Islam, and Hinduism.

So they're not all going to Heaven, as you say. They're going to Hell for believing the wrong things.
Davec post IMO was about being resurrected and living in paradise on earth not in heaven.
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Old 01-01-2005, 10:21 AM   #52
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It's got shit to do with God, it was a natural event the world is dangerous even without people.
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Old 01-01-2005, 12:31 PM   #53
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Quote:
Originally posted by martha



It isn't explicable. And no one can understand the way God works. Not even you. There is no "flaw." There is only that which we can't understand.

You can get pissed at God if you want, but don't you have to acknowledge a thing's existence to get angry with it?

i'm not pissed at God, because i'm agnostic -- i don't know if there's anything to get pissed of at. it's an event like this which can be explained by the science of plate tectonics in a brutal, amoral world. i'm fine with that. my question has been to the believers, and how they can reconcile a full-on faith and worship of specific notions of God in the face of such a tragedy, and i was originally looking for personal reflections on how such a thing can shake faith, or reaffirm it, or destroy it forever.

if i were a person of faith, i'd be asking myself this: if this is how God operates, whether or not we understand it, do we want a part of it? understanding that we cannot understand isn't going to bring back 150,000 innocents, and it strikes me as horrible that, if we are to subscribe to a belief in God, he would let such things happen and ask us to accept it's happening.

the moral thing to do, in the face of such tragedy, appears to be a rejection of this God.
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Old 01-01-2005, 12:48 PM   #54
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Quote:
Originally posted by Angela Harlem

Is it some form of population control which nature or God imposes on us?
I know you don`t believe this



If it would be a form of population control, he made a mistake. We, the western world are about 25% of the total population are using 75% of the natural recourses. So it would better for the world to kill us.

It is just a stroke of very bad luck but a chance for the rest of us to think about what should be done to reform our so called civilization..
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Old 01-01-2005, 02:14 PM   #55
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Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511

the moral thing to do, in the face of such tragedy, appears to be a rejection of this God.
Why? Because there was an event you can't understand? When did God ever tell us that we should understand what He does or doesn't do? The ways of God are beyond human understanding. You either accept that or you don't. If you accept that, it's a complete acceptance, with no exceptions. If you don't accept that, it also must be complete unacceptance, with no exceptions. That's where the problem of agnosticism comes in. It's the fence-sitting, hedging of one's bets. And that's why agnostics struggle so when confronted by an event of this enormity. Believers find ways of dealing with it. Atheists aren't concerned with the Divine implications of things. Agnostics want everything explained to them, and then get get pissed when those explanations don't measure up to their "moral" standards. It's GOD. It won't be explained to you. Ever.
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Old 01-01-2005, 03:59 PM   #56
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A flaw in the design of the world? Not really, the plates under the earth's crust are always moving around. That's why the west coast of America gets earthquakes, that's why the continents aren't all sitting where they used to be. It just is.

If, by some great good fortune, this tsunami had instead occured in such a place that the wave hit coastline where no people lived, would we even know about it?

In the nicest possible way, I can only reiterate that I believe it is exceedingly dangerous to pin God's hand on all natural events. And I believe in God.
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Old 01-01-2005, 04:17 PM   #57
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Quote:
Originally posted by Kieran McConville
A flaw in the design of the world? Not really, the plates under the earth's crust are always moving around. That's why the west coast of America gets earthquakes, that's why the continents aren't all sitting where they used to be. It just is.

If, by some great good fortune, this tsunami had instead occured in such a place that the wave hit coastline where no people lived, would we even know about it?

In the nicest possible way, I can only reiterate that I believe it is exceedingly dangerous to pin God's hand on all natural events. And I believe in God.

if god created the world, he created those plates that created those tsunamis that killed 150,000 people. there's a reason why natural disasters are often referred to as "acts of God."
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Old 01-01-2005, 04:25 PM   #58
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Quote:
Originally posted by martha


Why? Because there was an event you can't understand? When did God ever tell us that we should understand what He does or doesn't do? The ways of God are beyond human understanding. You either accept that or you don't. If you accept that, it's a complete acceptance, with no exceptions. If you don't accept that, it also must be complete unacceptance, with no exceptions. That's where the problem of agnosticism comes in. It's the fence-sitting, hedging of one's bets. And that's why agnostics struggle so when confronted by an event of this enormity. Believers find ways of dealing with it. Atheists aren't concerned with the Divine implications of things. Agnostics want everything explained to them, and then get get pissed when those explanations don't measure up to their "moral" standards. It's GOD. It won't be explained to you. Ever.

two things.

1. agnosticism is, to me, a position of honesty. of admitting that there are things you can't ever know, and trying to maintain integiry by precisely not going 100% in either direction. yes, believers and non-believers deal in different ways, but the agnostic looks at the two and sees two different, self-referential belief systems that are designed to reinforce their bottom lines, if you will, by explaining a disaster through their own prisms of understanding that in turn perpetuate only that specific belief system.

2. you're missing my point -- i'm not demanding an explanation from God, i'mm totally comfortable with knowing that i won't ever know the why behind such horror. what i am asking for are thoughts from those who are belivers (and non-believers) as to how such an event fits into their concept of a loving God. the idea that God created it all, and then let it go -- the watchmaker idea -- doesn't hold water in this case; for genocide, yes, not for natural disasters.
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Old 01-01-2005, 05:14 PM   #59
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Anthony, I know what you mean with some of the things you're talking about in your post-I've had some of those same questions before myself.

I still agree with the one who said that this was a natural disaster not tied to God, though, 'cause in regards to the talk of the creation of the earth and all that...I've personally had this idea for a while that the earth, and the rest of the universe, for that matter, was created through scientific means of some kind, and that after that was all created, God came about somehow and then evolution came about (still not sure how much of a role I feel God may have played in the evolutionary process, though). And since God would've come about after the earth was created, they wouldn't have had a part in creating the earth to do what it just did to these people.

Just a theory that's popped up in my mind . And yeah, this is a rather interesting discussion going on here.

Angela
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Old 01-01-2005, 05:22 PM   #60
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Originally posted by Angela Harlem
Martha may I ask a couple of questions, as this thread wont exist by the time I've had some years to study karma and give it the thought it needs. See, I like karma. I've made an overly simplified explanation for it in my own little bubbled universe but it relates to people as individuals. Are you referring to an all encompassing karma? Straight off the bat I know you dont mean that these people got what they deserved, as they didn't. I'm wondering if what you are saying somehow fits in with the larger picture of karma I have which entails overall good and bad, pain and joy, universal balance...I could be entirely off the wall here, but I wonder (and know there's no answers) but does this volume of suffering somehow link to the moments or instances of what it the absolute opposite? In the end it means us as individuals have lopsided lives. Some suffer unimaginable hardships and pain. Some lives are tragic and make us wonder how on earth any loving creator could allow it. Yet, if there's balance, this universe needs the contrary to balance it.
Humans tend to measure things I reckon. We look at ourselves and at where we fit. We look at the negatives, and we look at the positives, but is this karma stuff about putting them together?
I was hoping for a response to this post... from... anyone...
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