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Old 12-31-2004, 12:04 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally posted by DaveC


so based on that karma idea, those people deserved it??!?

that's disturbing.
You'd have to study the laws of karma and reincarnation to understand it better. I'm not interested in debating it or trying to change anyone's mind, but it is a fascinating subject for anyone who is interested in an esoteric, non-Christian, perspective.
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Old 12-31-2004, 12:12 PM   #17
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but the basic principle of karma is that you get what you deserve. you do good, good things come to you. you do bad, bad things will come to you.

so you're suggesting that these people got what they deserved. a bad thing happened to them so they must have been bad people, by that logic.
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Old 12-31-2004, 12:37 PM   #18
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Great post, Martha. I agree with you.
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Old 12-31-2004, 12:48 PM   #19
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The problem with stating that a just god would not let so many innocents die in a natural disaster is that to do so is to assign a human code of morality and ethics to a divine being.
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Old 12-31-2004, 01:28 PM   #20
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no I am not basing it on the assumption they are all christians I am basing it on the fact they are all Gods children.. and I never said they were going to heaven I said they would be on earth

They are already in hell now which is the grave not some place of eternal torment, which I have debated about before on this forum and don't want to go into again

and God does not take everyone to be in heaven with him this is another wrong assumption that turns people away from God because it does seem cruel for a mother to give birth to a child then if it dies say God wanted it.. which is not the case at all.
like I said before death is Gods enemy which he promises to do away with..

they are sleeping in death in their graves till the resurrection until Gods goverment takes over ruling this planet which is what you are praying for in the first few lines of the Lords prayer Let your KINGDOM come let YOUR WILL be done on EARTH as well as in Heaven... it is actually Gods heavenly goverment which will rule over the earth doing away with all that troubles it has now.. including bringing back to life those who have died which was the whole point in Jesus raising the dead when he was on earth to prove he had this power, if they were meant to be in heaven an were happy why would he want to bring them back?

why would he weep over the death of his friend Lazerus before he brought him back from the dead if he thought he was in heaven happy?.. he felt the pain and loss just as much as we do

Jesus himself said that they were just sleeping ...death is just a state of complete unconscienceness which is what has happened to those poor people in this awful earthquake and other disasters
and atrocities that has happened, and God will bring them back to life no matter what religion they were

When it says a new earth or world it doesnt mean this planet is going to be destroyed to be replaced by another one, but rather a new earthly society only this time it will be God ruling it not men and those from any race creed or religion can be part of it if they wish, of course they will have to learn to live by Gods standards, just like you have to live under certain standards and laws of any goverment of the country you live in and if you don't well you will not be suffering in some burning torment, you will just not exist which what death is ..the opposite of life... non existence that is Gods ultimute punishment for those who still refuse to accept his righteous standards

it says the tent of god is with mankind not one particular religion so every one has that chance to turn to him he pushes no one away its up to every individual on this planet no matter where they come from or who they are if they want to accept his rulership it is open to all it is their choice to make
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Old 12-31-2004, 01:59 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally posted by DaveC
but the basic principle of karma is that you get what you deserve. you do good, good things come to you. you do bad, bad things will come to you.

so you're suggesting that these people got what they deserved. a bad thing happened to them so they must have been bad people, by that logic.
Dave, you're operating under a dreadful simplification of karma. Before you go on, may I suggest some study of the subject on your part. And after that, years of thought and further study. It's so much more complicated than you think. If you prefer to keep your understanding simple, fine, but please don't dismiss the concept because you don't want to know more about it.
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Old 12-31-2004, 02:22 PM   #22
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.....I don't believe ....I believe in something but don't know to what, to God????? who says there's a God.....I used to believe in God(I was a catholic) but after reading some history books about the religy I doubt if there's a God.....but I say there's a God somewhere but He won't help us, he let the people learn by suffering just like you would learn your kid cycling, it goes with suffering it goes with falling and standing up an other example they say you must learn from your mistakes and that's what God is doing let the people learn by suffering but the people are not alwaus willing to learn......

an other thing I can't believe the tourists wants to go home ......... they must help the people there why they don't help the people what kind of human being are they?????? no they are good human beings, so egoistic.........
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Old 12-31-2004, 03:47 PM   #23
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God does allow these acts of nature to occur but these were NOT His intended actions for the environment He created man to live in. A consequence of the fall
of man due to sin, was a fall of his environment.

The question is not how could God let this happen, rather what can we do to help eachother?

This is taken from a christian prayer email i get each day.
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Old 12-31-2004, 03:57 PM   #24
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I found this in an article by Dr Edward Spence, a philosopher at the Centre for Applied Philosophy and Public Ethics, Charles Sturt University here in Australia:
Quote:

Ultimately, heartfelt tears shed in earnest and with compassion, with offerings of charity for those who have suffered, are more meaningful than any theological and philosophical treatise on the problem of evil. Especially at Christmas when, according to the gospels, love is the single core message.


Perhaps this is the essence, if the legend is true, of what God learnt from us when He walked and suffered as a man among us. Ultimately, the problem of evil confronts us not as a puzzle to be solved but as a mystery to be experienced. And as Jesus and Plato before him indicated, the meaning of the mystery of life can be found only by experiencing another great mystery - the mystery of love.
This sums up my feeling on the subject. While I don't begin to understand it all, I do find solace in knowing that God entered into our pain. In the cross, far from the stoney faced deity that exacts retribution indiscriminately, or the weak or capricious image of the divine found in so many new age philosophies; the God of history is the very one who signs on to experience human suffering at it’s worst.

In the Psalms, the book of the Bible Bono calls it's equivalent of the Blues, there's another reminder to me of our Creator’s heart for us. It's full of angry and hurt cries about suffering and injustice- at times it is both confronting and shocking and as you read it you find yourself asking how God allowed some of this stuff into his book. But that in itself is a huge comfort to me. It says he wants us to know it's ok to express how we feel to Him- he can take it. His heart is broken as ours is with the pain that exists in life. Psalm 22 written thousands of years before the crucifixion, before that method of execution was even invented, is both a prophetic psalm about what Jesus was to suffer and a heart renching cry to God from a psalmist who we can identify with when we experience suffering. Have a read of it sometime- it starts off with the words "My God, My God, why have you forsaken me?'.
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Old 12-31-2004, 04:25 PM   #25
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I’m ‘round the corner from anything that’s real
I’m across the road from hope
I’m under a bridge in a rip tide
That’s taken everything I call my own

One step closer to knowing
One step closer to knowing
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Old 12-31-2004, 04:27 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally posted by martha


Dave, you're operating under a dreadful simplification of karma. Before you go on, may I suggest some study of the subject on your part. And after that, years of thought and further study. It's so much more complicated than you think. If you prefer to keep your understanding simple, fine, but please don't dismiss the concept because you don't want to know more about it.
Can someone reveal the 'proper' understanding of karma that is now shrouded in mystery?


foray
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Old 12-31-2004, 04:53 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally posted by annj
no I am not basing it on the assumption they are all christians I am basing it on the fact they are all Gods children.. and I never said they were going to heaven I said they would be on earth

They are already in hell now which is the grave not some place of eternal torment, which I have debated about before on this forum and don't want to go into again

and God does not take everyone to be in heaven with him this is another wrong assumption that turns people away from God because it does seem cruel for a mother to give birth to a child then if it dies say God wanted it.. which is not the case at all.
like I said before death is Gods enemy which he promises to do away with..

they are sleeping in death in their graves till the resurrection until Gods goverment takes over ruling this planet which is what you are praying for in the first few lines of the Lords prayer Let your KINGDOM come let YOUR WILL be done on EARTH as well as in Heaven... it is actually Gods heavenly goverment which will rule over the earth doing away with all that troubles it has now.. including bringing back to life those who have died which was the whole point in Jesus raising the dead when he was on earth to prove he had this power, if they were meant to be in heaven an were happy why would he want to bring them back?

why would he weep over the death of his friend Lazerus before he brought him back from the dead if he thought he was in heaven happy?.. he felt the pain and loss just as much as we do

Jesus himself said that they were just sleeping ...death is just a state of complete unconscienceness which is what has happened to those poor people in this awful earthquake and other disasters
and atrocities that has happened, and God will bring them back to life no matter what religion they were

When it says a new earth or world it doesnt mean this planet is going to be destroyed to be replaced by another one, but rather a new earthly society only this time it will be God ruling it not men and those from any race creed or religion can be part of it if they wish, of course they will have to learn to live by Gods standards, just like you have to live under certain standards and laws of any goverment of the country you live in and if you don't well you will not be suffering in some burning torment, you will just not exist which what death is ..the opposite of life... non existence that is Gods ultimute punishment for those who still refuse to accept his righteous standards

it says the tent of god is with mankind not one particular religion so every one has that chance to turn to him he pushes no one away its up to every individual on this planet no matter where they come from or who they are if they want to accept his rulership it is open to all it is their choice to make

i mean you no disrespect, but this is exactly why i've fallen away from Christianity. standards, rulership, righteousness ... all are so beyond my experience here on earth that you might as well be writing in Aramaic. just what the fuck are you talking about? (and please don't take that personally, this is just a gut reaction coming across)

i work for a rather large cable network that all of you get in your homes, and i spent the day coordinating the movement of archived footage up to new york that will be sewn together to make a show on Tsunamis that will air next week. we're using this tragedy, and it's huge exposure, to hopefully get some big ratings. i have mixed feelings -- yes, human suffering sells, but also people want to learn from this tragedy, and what better way to learn than a 60 minute television documentary? i haven't yet shed a tear over this, but i have waves of pain and anguish, that pass, then return. all i can think about is that exquisite, anguished moment of death, the moment when the lungs fill with water and the cells scream and you want to breath but you take in salt water and dirt and sand and it burns and all you've got is blackness and bleakness and you're screaming like an animal who knows it's going to die but is thrashing its limbs against finality with all its might. like thousands of tons of burning steel and concrete falling and crushing a bunch of stockbrokers who committed the crime of getting up and coming to work on a beautiful Tuesday morning. i know these things are beyond human comprehension, and i don't know nearly enough about Karma to totally get where Martha is coming from, but i don't think it's beyond comprehension to question where, in the grand scheme of things, a supposedly loving God is when those who are supposedly made in his image are made to suffer and die, horribly, simply for being poor and living in the wrong place. i fully understand the nature of free will, and how things like genocide are man's doing, but this is something that is coming entirely God's on creation -- the Earth.

i return to the fact that all i can know is exactly what is. what is in front of me, what i hear, see, think, feel, and intuit. i see a sometimes vicious Earth filled with mostly innocents simply doing the best they can to get through each and every day, who get up each morning and hug their children and love their families and try in whatever way to simply survive and possibly improve their situation in some small way, each and every day. and for the earth to rise up and smash them like ants ... it's too horrible to contemplate, and i return to the alcholics anonymous phrase (not that i've ever been in AA): "What if not but for the Grace of God that were me." of course. i was vacationing in the Caribbean at the time. already a privileged American, my privileged status only increases, and i might love God more for sparing me, and helping me appreciate the incredible good fortune i have been born into, but that's because it wasn't me and it wasn't my children who are bloated, blue sacks of dead cells face down in a gutter in Sumatra. what this tragedy does, for me, is exacerbate the already unspeakable gap betweeen the West and the Rest, the haves and the have nothings, and for me to read this as anything other than pure, abject evil flowing either from an agnostic earth or an earth of a God who must be filled with some amount of evil, is to play into a self-justifying, feel-good, Western paradigm.

this is it, folks. the earth doesn't care. nor should it. in the end, we die alone, in our own arms, whether peacefully in our beds in a retirement community in St. Petersburg, FL, or screaming and choking on salt water in Sri Lanka. ashes to ashes, dust to dust. no better, no worse, than anyone else.

blankness. blackness. back to nothingness, on a small blue planet hurtling through a frozen universe.
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Old 12-31-2004, 05:21 PM   #28
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaia_hy..._Gaia_theories

Hey Irvine511, check out this link as another hypothesis about Earth and its activites. I don't subscribe to this theory but it is interesting.

Dude, I don't envy your position right now having to view these images and probably some images most of us will never see. You are closer to this event than I will ever be in that it is an aspect of your job. Your post is filled with emotion and after explaining what you have been doing all day, I can definitely understand the frustration.

Best wishes to you and I hope you find solace during the next few weeks.

Peace out.
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Old 12-31-2004, 05:51 PM   #29
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Martha may I ask a couple of questions, as this thread wont exist by the time I've had some years to study karma and give it the thought it needs. See, I like karma. I've made an overly simplified explanation for it in my own little bubbled universe but it relates to people as individuals. Are you referring to an all encompassing karma? Straight off the bat I know you dont mean that these people got what they deserved, as they didn't. I'm wondering if what you are saying somehow fits in with the larger picture of karma I have which entails overall good and bad, pain and joy, universal balance...I could be entirely off the wall here, but I wonder (and know there's no answers) but does this volume of suffering somehow link to the moments or instances of what it the absolute opposite? In the end it means us as individuals have lopsided lives. Some suffer unimaginable hardships and pain. Some lives are tragic and make us wonder how on earth any loving creator could allow it. Yet, if there's balance, this universe needs the contrary to balance it.
Humans tend to measure things I reckon. We look at ourselves and at where we fit. We look at the negatives, and we look at the positives, but is this karma stuff about putting them together?
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Old 12-31-2004, 07:27 PM   #30
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I don't believe in God, but if I did I'd find it easier to believe in God who is non-interventionist and never directly meddles into what's going on with humanity. I mean, if you take the view that everything that ever happens, happens according to God's plan, then you cannot say "God had nothing do with it" when something like this tsunami happens.
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