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Old 01-04-2005, 07:53 PM   #181
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Originally posted by joyfulgirl

And to those who aren't even sure if they believe in God or not yet arrogantly think they know what this God wants for another, please stop.
I'm not sure if I really believe in a God, but one thing is sure I know more about religy then many so-called people who believe in a God.....my mum is strong catholics but I don't know
I struggle with to many things
you believe in God? if yes then what are your fundamendations for your trust in God? you believe the words in the Bible?
why? it's a fact that it's written by human beings and what is your religy? if you think my answers are to personal then I can understand

but if you can't tell me the reasons or at least an idea ....... well then it's worthless argueing
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Old 01-04-2005, 08:02 PM   #182
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you are right -- i do think anger is the moral response.
Please consider the possibility that some people, through previous experiences, personal and/or global, have already been through the anger you are now feeling, and after years and years of blood, sweat, tears, contemplation, study, searching within and without, have reached a place where instead of feeling the intense anger that you are feeling they are feeling deep sadness and compassion, and are deeply moved yet simultaneously experiencing waves of insights that deepen their connection to God due to their sincerity in desiring to understand better. Try putting those shoes on.
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Old 01-04-2005, 08:05 PM   #183
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Good point, joyfulgirl.
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Old 01-04-2005, 08:10 PM   #184
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you believe in God? if yes then what are your fundamendations for your trust in God? you believe the words in the Bible?
why? it's a fact that it's written by human beings and what is your religy? i
I believe in God--not the God of any particular religion but more as a creative principle, nameless, formless yet is everything. I believe this because of personal experiences.

But I'm not actually interested in convincing anyone of God's existence. I think it's something you come to through your own searching...or not. I don't think it's bad or wrong to not believe in God. I think whatever you believe in or don't believe in ultimately serves soul's evolution.
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Old 01-04-2005, 08:46 PM   #185
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ok I respect your way to believe after your personal experiences

I believe in the goodness of some people ......that there are some good people living on this wonderful earth....yes earth is wonderful only the way we're living on it sucks

I don't struggle in my believe in God because the disasters,wars, my personal experiences(I've been through a lot in my very young life) etc but more in the story how they wanted us to believe they're not looking to the facts...and people immediately believe what they're saying without much thinking
just like now, most of the people believe everything what the media says is true, while in case 75% aren't true

and I want to ask everybody please take action and do not react- become member of Unicef,Amnesty etc. or do volunteer work for people who really need it and if you're planning to go on vacation but don't know you're destination please consider about going to Africa....it's a wonderful place with wonderful people only they get not an equal chance like us all because people and countries were to busy with themself and not with other ones
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Old 01-05-2005, 01:27 AM   #186
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Originally posted by Dreadsox


BEEP BEEP BEEP>....WRONG ANSWER......Play again....


Not everyone believes God wrote the bible. Inspired, yes, wrote it, no.

god wrote the bible through the prophets, it's clear he didn't take a pen, but it's his word...............you know what, that's right the main problem, many people don't give the bible the right importance, it is seen like any other book, with fully invented stories. many say where is god, well god is there, god is in the bible, there we find all his teaching. and this is not my personal point of view, this is the christian point of view. try to read the apocalypse, maybe you did it, but study it, you will see how much answers you can find there
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Old 01-05-2005, 01:38 AM   #187
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Originally posted by U2Vertigoing


uhm God wrote the bible......don't think so huh
the people wrote the bible, foolish people we are who says it's not an invented story??????
I believe it did happen many centuries ago but I'm sure God even didn't wrote 5% of the bible
I don't know if you know this but Jesus was a jew and he was born in March not in December...............just to take the facts clear

actually it isn't clear when jesus came to earth, we know he died around eastern, the 25 december is an invention of the roman church, just to celebrate jesus's birth, what anyway isn't recommended by the bible to do, at least not in in the pagan way like many use to do.
you say you're sure god didn't wrote 5% of the bible........this is what you think, not what the bible says, i believe what the bible says, maybe you do not, i respect it, but don't agree
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Old 01-05-2005, 01:44 AM   #188
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hmm, i don't think that just because you think it's inspired means you think it's just another book....just because someone doesn't think that the bible is perfect does not mean they do not find it inspirational or meaningful.
is it not rather audacious to claim to have the Christian Point of View? Just how many christian views have there been since CE? Are you implying that your view is THE view?
My personal opinion on this whole mess is this:
At one point humankind and God (whatever ya wanna call it) were essentially inseperable. The closest picture i can paint is that of the amerindians and their spirituality. We were one with nature, so one with God. Greed, pride, individuality (not freedom) etc took root in the "hearts" of humans and a great divide was created. Genesis provides an excellent allegory of this story. So, really we kicked God out of the garden of eden. without that spirit fully here really awful things happen. half of the diseases we currently are fighting are man-made. AIDS, chronic pain, etc etc are all results of decades of terrible pollution and man driven ambition.
Think about the opportunity that now lays at our feet. When you or I show love to another person we are inviting God back into this world. It might be fleeting, but when you show someone love you show them that ultimate spirit.
Imagine....
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Old 01-05-2005, 01:48 AM   #189
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....you may say i'm dreamer, but i'm not the only one
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Old 01-05-2005, 01:48 AM   #190
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am i the only one finding this whole situation entirely difficult to believe? i'm not saying it's made up...it is just so terrible i am having a difficult time accepting and being completely moved....i feel like something is wrong with me, i should feel sadder, but i somehow find this all too unfathomable
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Old 01-05-2005, 02:01 AM   #191
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hmm, i don't think that just because you think it's inspired means you think it's just another book....just because someone doesn't think that the bible is perfect does not mean they do not find it inspirational or meaningful.
is it not rather audacious to claim to have the Christian Point of View? Just how many christian views have there been since CE? Are you implying that your view is THE view?
My personal opinion on this whole mess is this:
At one point humankind and God (whatever ya wanna call it) were essentially inseperable. The closest picture i can paint is that of the amerindians and their spirituality. We were one with nature, so one with God. Greed, pride, individuality (not freedom) etc took root in the "hearts" of humans and a great divide was created. Genesis provides an excellent allegory of this story. So, really we kicked God out of the garden of eden. without that spirit fully here really awful things happen. half of the diseases we currently are fighting are man-made. AIDS, chronic pain, etc etc are all results of decades of terrible pollution and man driven ambition.
Think about the opportunity that now lays at our feet. When you or I show love to another person we are inviting God back into this world. It might be fleeting, but when you show someone love you show them that ultimate spirit.
Imagine....

well you know, god doesn't hide, don't believe it is impossible to have the real christian view, there mustn't be personal views, the goal is to get inside it. showing love to other persons is what i do everyday, but we don't have the power to get god in this world in, it's we, who must get in his world. it's very right what you say that all the pollutions are caused by man himself, that's why we're imperfect, and that's the reason why we must act following god's will, he promised to lead us to salvation- pain, diseases, death will be cancelled, all the bad things will be made clear by god, why shouldn't we trust it, eternal life is what god wants for us. he's giving us time, time to find him, we're not in a dark whirl
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Old 01-05-2005, 06:55 AM   #192
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Originally posted by joyfulgirl


Please consider the possibility that some people, through previous experiences, personal and/or global, have already been through the anger you are now feeling, and after years and years of blood, sweat, tears, contemplation, study, searching within and without, have reached a place where instead of feeling the intense anger that you are feeling they are feeling deep sadness and compassion, and are deeply moved yet simultaneously experiencing waves of insights that deepen their connection to God due to their sincerity in desiring to understand better. Try putting those shoes on.
i'll certainly put those shoes on in regards to this post. it's very sincere, beautifully written, and i fully accept the fact that this is probably where you are at. and that's wonderful, and i am envious in a sense. also note that in my post i did say "i think" -- which makes it personal, and also not a statement of fact but a statement of belief. i don't mean to come across too aggressively, but i think the nature of such a forum (and the inescapable fact that i am really, really angry ... i do think it's a fact that this is the worst natural disaster certainly in my lifetime) where you have no sense of the "tone" of the argument can make things difficult. finally, your post was the first that i have come across (i think ... been a long thread ... no, Nathan 1977 said something similar, but more Biblically based, and i really respected that and said so in my comments) that has espoused arriving at peace with this catastrophe through lifelong proceses of thought and reflection. what i've heard more of is the acceptance of religious dogma as explanation and panacea, and it behooves me to challenge that. perhaps that's arrogant, but i learn much in the process, so i'm going to continue to do so.

but thank you for your post -- i do appreciate it.
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Old 01-05-2005, 07:45 AM   #193
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Originally posted by paxetaurora
I don't agree that this kind of event is inconsistent with the existence of a loving God, but I also don't agree that God is not to be questioned. Maybe I draw this more from a Jewish tradition than a Christian one, but I always liked a Jewish conception of conversation with God. The Jews I know are very comfortable with doubt, conflict, even anger as far as God goes, and they believe that "having it out" with God eventually makes their faith stronger and their relationship with God closer.

There are some great images of that kind of struggle in the OT--Jacob wrestling the angel is one of my (and Bono's, too, I think--LOL) favorite Bible stories ever. And the book of Job is almost one lengthy argument with God--carried on by Job, a righteous man who loses everything and finally wants to know why. And he does actually get some answers.

Is God "answerable" to us in the way that a child is to a parent? No, of course not. But I think that it's irresponsible of us to simply sit back and say, "Oh, whatever, it's God's will." It might well be God's will, but to not struggle with that, to not continue to ask questions of oneself and of God and of our fellow persons of faith, is a cop-out. Albert Einstein it was, I believe, who said that God would not have bestowed us with reason if God did not expect us to use it.
Thank you very much for posting this, it was quite thoughtful and enlightening!
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Old 01-05-2005, 09:42 AM   #194
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Originally posted by babyman



actually it isn't clear when jesus came to earth, we know he died around eastern, the 25 december is an invention of the roman church, just to celebrate jesus's birth, what anyway isn't recommended by the bible to do, at least not in in the pagan way like many use to do.
you say you're sure god didn't wrote 5% of the bible........this is what you think, not what the bible says, i believe what the bible says, maybe you do not, i respect it, but don't agree
I also respect your opinion but your 100% true that it's God words? you never can't be you must look into history books and also in the bible if you read well then you'll say many things aren't correct
you believe Maria is the mother of Jesus?? you believe she was poor?? you believe in Satan?? if you believe in God you also believe in Satan.....
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Old 01-05-2005, 10:06 AM   #195
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well you know, god doesn't hide, don't believe it is impossible to have the real christian view, there mustn't be personal views, the goal is to get inside it. showing love to other persons is what i do everyday, but we don't have the power to get god in this world in, it's we, who must get in his world. it's very right what you say that all the pollutions are caused by man himself, that's why we're imperfect, and that's the reason why we must act following god's will, he promised to lead us to salvation- pain, diseases, death will be cancelled, all the bad things will be made clear by god, why shouldn't we trust it, eternal life is what god wants for us. he's giving us time, time to find him, we're not in a dark whirl
if you believe in the bible your comment is 100% true here's an example:
Jesus was sleeping but outside there was a heavy storm the apostles were afraid and were crying and shouting for help then Jesus woke up and asked them why there're afraid....God is with them and shall lead them trough darkness and he calmed the sea......the apostles were suprised who's he, who's he that the sea listen to him?? how can son of King David do this he must have powers that are bigger then us....

but somehow I think we must trust at the goodness of some people not at God because if there's a God He won't do anything he just let the people learn by suffering but the people are foolish first there must something bad happen before they take action....
but it's the people who are bad, they start wars, most diseases and disasters come because the rich people don't care for the poor, some diseases are still unknown like cancer how do you get it? how did the first people with that disease got it or with Aids it must have started somewhere?
maybe it's a consequence of the pest that flew here around many years ago....maybe aids comes from Africa because they don't get medicins and normal treatment is hospitals or because the famine that still is going on there??
is it God's work?? I don't think so everywhere there's a explanation for only sometimes it's hard to find but it's not God's work....I do believe God or something else created earth but not the diseases it's just a result of some circumstances
if He created earth then one day He'll destroy earth....
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