a loving God and the Tsunami - Page 10 - U2 Feedback

Go Back   U2 Feedback > Lypton Village > Free Your Mind > Free Your Mind Archive
Click Here to Login
 
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
Old 01-03-2005, 09:38 AM   #136
Blue Crack Supplier
 
Irvine511's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 30,499
Local Time: 10:58 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by nbcrusader
Imagine taking a series of pictures of a parent interacting with a child. Let's say, in each interaction the parent is loving the child.

Now, in some of those pictures, we might see a stern look or an "angry" face. Taking individually, you might not conclude that the parent is loving the child. Looking at one picture of an angry face and arriving at the conclusion that the parent does not love the child would be wrong.

this, however, i find horribly insulting. again, please go to Sumatra and explain this to people, that they are naughty children -- in fact, we are all naughty children -- and that this was a "tough love" act by God who Knows Best. would you have had the same reaction had an earthquake killed 150,000 people in SoCal, including your family? the attitude i hear expressed in this post, comparing God to a parent and people to children, is condescendingly paternaistic at best and Western colonalist at worst.
__________________

__________________
Irvine511 is offline  
Old 01-03-2005, 10:00 AM   #137
Blue Crack Addict
 
nbcrusader's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Southern California
Posts: 22,071
Local Time: 07:58 PM
Essentially, you are asking God to explain His actions.

And yes, I would have the same reaction. The key to faith is that you keep it during the best of times and the worst of times.


And you can slap whatever labels you want on Christianity - I'm not sure how that make you feel better.
__________________

__________________
nbcrusader is offline  
Old 01-03-2005, 10:34 AM   #138
Blue Crack Supplier
 
Irvine511's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 30,499
Local Time: 10:58 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by nbcrusader
Essentially, you are asking God to explain His actions.

And yes, I would have the same reaction. The key to faith is that you keep it during the best of times and the worst of times.


And you can slap whatever labels you want on Christianity - I'm not sure how that make you feel better.

no, one step further: i want God to justify his actions.
__________________
Irvine511 is offline  
Old 01-03-2005, 10:38 AM   #139
Blue Crack Addict
 
nbcrusader's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Southern California
Posts: 22,071
Local Time: 07:58 PM
And why should a Sovereign God answer to you? If He is your equal, or better, your subordinate, He is not much of a God, now is He?
__________________
nbcrusader is offline  
Old 01-03-2005, 10:43 AM   #140
Rock n' Roll Doggie
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Strong Badia
Posts: 3,430
Local Time: 03:58 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511
i don't think i'd buy any explanation offered to me for such mass tragedy even if it came from the lips of this God itself.
Then why are we talking about this at all?

What Martha said seems to sum it up... people who believe in God will find something in this that corresponds to their worldview, people who don't believe will find something in this that corresponds to theirs.
__________________
nathan1977 is offline  
Old 01-03-2005, 10:58 AM   #141
Rock n' Roll Doggie
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Strong Badia
Posts: 3,430
Local Time: 03:58 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by datatyme
If you believe in the Bible, you'd have to conceed that God broke his promise never to cause this much death due to flooding ever again. I guess rainbows really are just refracted light afterall. Or perhaps you could say that there wasn't a righteous person among the whole bunch, otherwise God would have told them to build an ark or something. Or, perhaps God doesn't really exist except in the minds of his believers. http://www.agnosticatheist.com
God never promised that. At the climax of the Noah's Ark story, God says that "never again will I destroy all living creatures, as I have done." (Gen. 8:21, NIV). He does not promise that bad things will not happen. In fact, one could argue that since the flood, God promised that He would not be the agent behind such events in the future -- but He never promised that such events would not happen.
__________________
nathan1977 is offline  
Old 01-03-2005, 12:11 PM   #142
War Child
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: OC
Posts: 711
Local Time: 03:58 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511



no, one step further: i want God to justify his actions.
And God answers to you since when ?

When things don't go their way my kids demand my actions be justified too.
__________________
cardosino is offline  
Old 01-03-2005, 12:15 PM   #143
Blue Crack Supplier
 
Irvine511's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 30,499
Local Time: 10:58 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by nathan1977


Then why are we talking about this at all?

What Martha said seems to sum it up... people who believe in God will find something in this that corresponds to their worldview, people who don't believe will find something in this that corresponds to theirs.

read a bit more closely: *this* God.

different religions, while they share the concept of a diety, have very different understandings of how God operates especially in daily life. what interests me is how this tragedy might, or might not, cause you to question what you have been taught about God or have always thought. i'm trying to kick out questions, not answers.

let me give an example: after 9-11, i kept thinking for a bit along the lines of "how should a liberal like me respond?" it was when the "blame America" left started sounding like the "blame the gays" right that i took a step back, finally understood the fundamental circularity of the political spectrum, and re-examined my notions of how a liberal was supposed to act and started to really understand the connotations of the word "liberal" and realized that lables have very little to do with reality. i'm just curious, i guess, because there are *so* many Christians in FYM (many who are very articulate), what something like this does to the words "God" and "Faith."
__________________
Irvine511 is offline  
Old 01-03-2005, 12:16 PM   #144
Blue Crack Supplier
 
Irvine511's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 30,499
Local Time: 10:58 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by cardosino


And God answers to you since when ?

When things don't go their way my kids demand my actions be justified too.

God should answer. or maybe there is no God. that's seeming like the most logical conclusion to be drawn from this, for now.
__________________
Irvine511 is offline  
Old 01-03-2005, 12:17 PM   #145
War Child
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: OC
Posts: 711
Local Time: 03:58 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511



God should answer.


God doesn't answer to human demands for explanations of his actions. Or non-actions.

I know you're smart enough to know the meaning of "Faith".


Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511

or maybe there is no God. that's seeming like the most logical conclusion to be drawn from this, for now.
For you maybe.
__________________
cardosino is offline  
Old 01-03-2005, 12:20 PM   #146
Blue Crack Supplier
 
Irvine511's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 30,499
Local Time: 10:58 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by cardosino



God doesn't answer to human demands for explanations of his actions. Or non-actions.

I know you're smart enough to know the meaning of "Faith".




For you maybe.

yes, and for me, faith is predicated upon doubt. for doubt not to rear its head in the face of this tragedy ... that seems to me evidence of a closed mind. yes, after thought, your faith might be strengthened, it might not change at all, but for questions to, for, and about God not to arise i think would be evidence of blind faith, which isn't faith, but chauvinism.

yes, for me. absolutely. but i would argue, that if we are to use logic, a human means of understanding, that it is striking me as more logical to deny the existence of God than to affirm it, based upon the events of the past week or so.
__________________
Irvine511 is offline  
Old 01-03-2005, 12:24 PM   #147
Rock n' Roll Doggie
ALL ACCESS
 
speedracer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: MD
Posts: 7,574
Local Time: 10:58 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511


when faced with these three options, i think the level of suffering is irrelevant. if a coconut falls off a tree and hits me in the head and i die, either God wanted that to happen (it was part of his plan) or i was simply in the wrong place at the wrong time. same thing with the Tsunami, the earthquake in Bam, or way back to Pompeii. either God wants it, or there is no God, it seems to me.

Everybody is going to die sometime. If a man's life is cut short by 40 years due to some natural catastrophe (anything from lightning to sleep apnea -- may Rev. Reggie White rest in peace), does this disprove the existence of God?

30 years? 20? 10? 5? 1?
__________________
speedracer is offline  
Old 01-03-2005, 04:10 PM   #148
Rock n' Roll Doggie
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Strong Badia
Posts: 3,430
Local Time: 03:58 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511



yes, and for me, faith is predicated upon doubt. for doubt not to rear its head in the face of this tragedy ... that seems to me evidence of a closed mind. yes, after thought, your faith might be strengthened, it might not change at all, but for questions to, for, and about God not to arise i think would be evidence of blind faith, which isn't faith, but chauvinism.
At the same time, it seems to me (again, just my opinion, and I don't mean to judge) that you don't believe that answers to these questions are really possible. If you don't, then life will be spent railing against the wind.

For me, the tragic events of the past week are not incompatible with the idea of a loving God -- perhaps because I've had to ask these questions before. (Most notably but not exclusively when I watched my sister go through a debilitating battle with anorexia.)

It was only then that I found in scripture that God never promises easy lives, or lives free from struggle, pain, death, or horror -- such are the consequences of imperfect men and women living in an imperfect creation.

I would suspect that many of us on this thread have had such experiences. Sure, there will always be people whose faith is as shallow as the water in a bathtub, but I suspect -- from my experiences with other U2 fans, anyway -- that folks here are a bit more self-aware.

I also think that yes, doubt is a critical part of the journey of faith, but there is a point when you either start living to your faith, or your doubts -- and if you live to your doubts...you become one of those reeds blown by every wind.

Quote:

i would argue, that if we are to use logic, a human means of understanding, that it is striking me as more logical to deny the existence of God than to affirm it, based upon the events of the past week or so.
Makes me think of the bit when Paul talks about how the foolishness of God is wiser than man's wisdom. If you believe that humanity's wisdom is enough to find God, I think you'll always be frustrated -- b/c I think that unless God reveals Himself, we are fumbling in the dark. It's why theologians have argued amongst themselves for millenia.

I guess it comes back to a relationship with God. Job -- who first famously asked this question -- spends 38 chapters arguing with his friends about God, but it's only when he directs his prayers to God that He reveals Himself.

This is true in my life too -- when I demand that God come to me on my terms, He doesn't. This is true in scripture too -- I think David spends as much time in the Psalms lamenting God's silence as he does praising God's actions. (Bono referred to David as the first blues singer.)

It seems from my own life that God doesn't answer all my questions -- but when I search for Him wholeheartedly, eventually I find answers to the really big things...or I find peace in the uncertainties...as He promised.
__________________
nathan1977 is offline  
Old 01-03-2005, 05:55 PM   #149
Blue Crack Supplier
 
Irvine511's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 30,499
Local Time: 10:58 PM
nathan: firstly, i wish your sister a speedy and full recovery.

also, thanks for the most thoughtful post i think i've come across in this thread, and probably the closest to what i was hoping to find when i started this thread. i'm going to take the time to really read it before i respond, if i even respond at all.

much thanks.
__________________
Irvine511 is offline  
Old 01-04-2005, 05:10 AM   #150
Blue Crack Addict
 
MrsSpringsteen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 24,998
Local Time: 10:58 PM
that is very well said nathan

Presidents Bush and Clinton were actually talking about this very subject last night on Larry King. cnn.com might have the transcript
__________________

__________________
MrsSpringsteen is offline  
 

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 10:58 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Design, images and all things inclusive copyright © Interference.com