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View Poll Results: Will you accept the invitation and watch the Frontline/PBS special on Mormons?
Yes, I'm very curious and will watch it on 4/30 and 5/1 3 9.68%
Nope 8 25.81%
I may if I have time. 9 29.03%
Yes, I absolutely will. 1 3.23%
I won't watch it as I think the LDS/Mormons are a godless cult 2 6.45%
I have no opinion but will form an opinion after watching this on 4/30 and 5/1 0 0%
diamondbruno9, are you trying to sell us something? 9 29.03%
I plan to watch this and offer my thoughts after viewing this 1 3.23%
I will watch this to validate all of my fears about the LDS/Mormon religion. 2 6.45%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 31. You may not vote on this poll

 
 
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Old 05-01-2007, 03:15 PM   #106
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Quote:
Originally posted by diamond
I like that my faith teaches us to be inclusionary of other faiths, to try and understand where ppl are in their spiritual growth and what their perspectives are.

I also like that my faith emphasises helping our fellowman whether they be Christian, Muslim or Buddist.

dbs
I don't know much about Mormonism but I like this.
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Old 05-01-2007, 03:17 PM   #107
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Originally posted by coemgen

That's why he came — God did the work for us.
What? No personal accountability? Wow, sign me up!
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Old 05-01-2007, 03:29 PM   #108
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Ah, no. It's not like that.
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Old 05-01-2007, 03:34 PM   #109
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Quote:
Originally posted by coemgen


You know what — in many cases I agree with you. I've met many Mormons who are great people. I'm sure diamond is one of them. I've also met some who weren't so great. (One of which is now in my family,
You have mentioned this before
(in a previous thread)

I really think a lot of what you have posted
has more to do with your own feelings with your personal family business.

That you want to claim to have a corner on what you believe is the absolute truth about Jesus does not bother me.

I suppose if I had to hear it at family gatherings all the time,
it might rub me the wrong way
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Old 05-01-2007, 03:34 PM   #110
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Originally posted by anitram


That's what YOU and your denomination believe. 1 billion Catholics disagree and they don't hold the bible to be the final authority. The Mormons disagree. I'm neither a practicing Catholic nor a practicing Mormon, but it would be annoying as all fuck to have to listen to this over and over and over again.

I don't understand why it's always these Evangelical denominations who are obsessed with judging who is a Christian, what the Bible says and it's your way or the highway. Why not go about minding your own business, practicing your faith as you see fit and leaving others to practice theirs?
anitram, every religion claims to have exclusive truths. Certainly Mormonism. They claim to be the one true church.
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Old 05-01-2007, 03:39 PM   #111
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Quote:
Originally posted by deep


You have mentioned this before
(in a previous thread)

I really think a lot of what you have posted
has more to do with your own feelings with your personal family business.

That you want to claim to have a corner on what you believe is the absolute truth about Jesus does not bother me.

I suppose if I had to hear it at family gatherings all the time,
it might rub me the wrong way
Actually, it's not family gatherings. The Mormons in our family include my brother-in-law and his family. He, his brother and sister don't follow the Mormon faith. His parents, who are both nice people and are now divorced, do. His step-mother is a Mormon as well, and she's the one who lacks in character tremendously -- and it's not just me that thinks this. Their dad is regretting having married her, too. Really, my interactions with these people is minimal. Except for my brother-in-law. And I should add, we rarely talk about the Mormon faith together, and I had nothing to do with him leaving the faith.
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Old 05-01-2007, 03:46 PM   #112
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Originally posted by coemgen


Actually, it's not family gatherings. The Mormons in our family include my brother-in-law and his family. He, his brother and sister don't follow the Mormon faith. His parents, who are both nice people and are now divorced, do. His step-mother is a Mormon as well, and she's the one who lacks in character tremendously -- and it's not just me that thinks this. Their dad is regretting having married her, too. Really, my interactions with these people is minimal. Except for my brother-in-law. And I should add, we rarely talk about the Mormon faith together, and I had nothing to do with him leaving the faith.

and yet you bring this into the conversation


Quote:
His step-mother is a Mormon as well, and she's the one who lacks in character tremendously -- and it's not just me that thinks this. Their dad is regretting having married her, too.
Why do you feel you must get the information out against this religion?

Why bring it up?
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Old 05-01-2007, 03:53 PM   #113
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Because I was making the point earlier that there are good and bad Christians and Mormons. That's all. It's just going deeper on something I mentioned in response to Irvine earlier. I'm not just taking a cheap shot at her because she's Mormon.
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Old 05-01-2007, 09:22 PM   #114
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Originally posted by coemgen
anitram, every religion claims to have exclusive truths.
Which is why it's a relief to be free of all of them.
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Old 05-01-2007, 09:28 PM   #115
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every religion claims to have exclusive truths.
there are many that do not claim to have the only way into heaven, and claiming others are cast into darkness (hell)
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Old 05-02-2007, 01:29 AM   #116
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This is true.

The concept of hell though, as far as I understand it, isn't just a bad place where bad people go. I understand it to be, more simply, the absence of God. Here on Earth God interacts with us. We can have a relationship with him. Where we go next is simply up to us -- do we want to spend eternity with God, or without God. Free will lets us decide. God's not going to force us to be with him if we don't want to be with him. That's just my understanding though.
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Old 05-02-2007, 11:58 AM   #117
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I watched most of each night, and found it all very interesting.
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Old 05-02-2007, 02:23 PM   #118
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I watched the first night

and have the last 2 hours on tivo


I think it gave way too much time to the plural marriages after 1890


The Mormon church allowed them from 1840- 1890, 50 years.

After that, anyone involved with that practice would have been exiled, lost their membership, completely.

Don't get me wrong, it needs to be included in the history, but not emphasised as related to that Church after it was abolished.
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Old 05-03-2007, 05:52 PM   #119
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Quote:
Originally posted by coemgen
This doesn't sound like a testament to Christ to me:

A. Questions about the Book of Mormon

total lack of archeological support
contradictions with other LDS scriptures
abundant plaigarism of the KJV Bible
key changes were made to the original version
curious similarities to contemporaneous works of fiction
confessions and defections of the other witnesses

B. Questions about Joseph Smith's credibility:

comparisons of himself to Jesus
contradictions in accounts of his first vision
his suspicious past and character
false prophecies he made
both sides of the story of his 'martydom' and early LDS persecution
Smith's reliability as a translator - the failed test of the Book of Abraham
Smith's 'inspired'version of the Bible

C. Questions about the integrity of other Mormon Prophets

major changes in Mormon doctrine and revelation
polygamy, role of blacks, blood atonement
deceptions by the LDS church
changes in prophecy
secret ceremonies and masonry
Well that's because a lot of truths have been lost and restored back to the earth by God in our day through Joseph Smith.

That said, I will answer your questions once for the benifit of the participants inthis thread, but I will not debate you, you have your beliefs and I will not fault you, your entitled to them and that you're not actually really curious about by faith other than trying to tear it down I thought it would necessary to address and answer some of the claims you've made against my faith which I take offense of.

Questions about the Book of Mormon

total lack of archeological support

-Not true, there is plenty of evidence of civilizations existing all during the time periods that the Book of Mormon represented. At the time of Christ’s appearance many civilizations were destroyed due to earthquakes, cities sinking into the ocean, tidal waves etc. When the record keepers of the Book of Mormon were killed off at approx 420 AD, the record was buried in the earth, (the Book of Mormon record- the gold plates in which Joseph was guided to later) legends of Christ visitation were kept alive that varied tribe to tribe for the next 1400 years. Legends of Quetzalcoatl, a great white God that visited the American Indians forbearers was in fact Christ after his resurrection, that the Book of Mormon bears record of. When Cortez arrived on his horses the American Indians bowed down thinking Quetzalcoatl had returned. Although Quetzalcoatl's origin is clouded in obscurity, the legends, the few pre-Columbian writings extant today, and the early post-Conquest writings contain an abundance of material on this ancient and revered god. These accounts are contradictory and vary widely both on the god's attributes and the details of how he was worshiped, undoubtedly due to a millennium of digressions from the original concept from the end of the Book of Mormon to the time of the Conquest. However, through all this maze, we find that the Mesoamericans consistently endow Quetzalcoatl with many Christ-like attributes, some of which are listed below:

--Quetzalcoatl was the creator of life.
--Quetzalcoatl taught virtue.
--Quetzalcoatl was the greatest Lord of all.
--Quetzalcoatl had a "long beard and the features of a white man."
--The Mesoamericans believed Quetzalcoatl would return.

The Book of Mormon gives the true account of who Quetzalcoatl was, -Christ.
That the Bible had was persevered in a different way than the Book of Mormon doesn’t mean that the Book of Mormon isn’t true.



contradictions with other LDS scriptures

If you take scriptures out of context you can claim they contradict each other. A disingenuous person can take scriptures out of the Bible and claim that they contradict each other, the same with the Book of Mormon. This is why there are over 6000.00 different religions in America.




abundant plagiarism of the KJV Bible

-The Bible plagiarizes itself- does this make the Bible false? Here are a few examples:

-1-

Isaiah 2:2-4
2 And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the LORD’s house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it.
3 And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.
4 And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.

Compare to...

Micah 4:1-3
1 But in the last days it shall come to pass, that the mountain of the house of the LORD shall be established in the top of the mountains, and it shall be exalted above the hills; and people shall flow unto it.
2 And many nations shall come, and say, Come, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, and to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for the law shall go forth of Zion, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.
3 ¶ And he shall judge among many people, and rebuke strong nations afar off; and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up a sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.

-2-

Obadiah 1:1-4
1 The vision of Obadiah. Thus saith the Lord GOD concerning Edom; We have heard a rumour from the LORD, and an ambassador is sent among the heathen, Arise ye, and let us rise up against her in battle.
2 Behold, I have made thee small among the heathen: thou art greatly despised.
3 ¶ The pride of thine heart hath deceived thee, thou that dwellest in the clefts of the rock, whose habitation is high; that saith in his heart, Who shall bring me down to the ground?
4 Though thou exalt thyself as the eagle, and though thou set thy nest among the stars, thence will I bring thee down, saith the LORD.

Compare to...

Jeremiah 49:14-16
14 I have heard a rumour from the LORD, and an ambassador is sent unto the heathen, saying, Gather ye together, and come against her, and rise up to the battle.
15 For, lo, I will make thee small among the heathen, and despised among men.
16 Thy terribleness hath deceived thee, and the pride of thine heart, O thou that dwellest in the clefts of the rock, that holdest the height of the hill: though thou shouldest make thy nest as high as the eagle, I will bring thee down from thence, saith the LORD.

That Joseph recognized some of the same text he was translating as the same as Isaiah he was forth right enough to credit Isaiah and include it in the Book of Mormon, so it was not plagiarizing.




key changes were made to the original version

-Not really, none that really make a difference.

Curious similarities to contemporaneous works of fiction

-So, there are many stories in the Bible that are similar to Gulliver’s Travels does that make the Bible untrue?


confessions and defections of the other witnesses

-There have never been confessions of witnesses denying their testimonies of the authenticity of the Book of Mormon, this is a complete lie. You may attempt to twist their words but all of the witnesses stayed firm and unshakeable in their testimonies all of them to their deathbeds.

-3 men plus Joseph Smith had the Angel Moroni appear to them and show them the plates while enraptured in a glorious vision, never denying or defecting from the veracity of that event.

Here is their testimony found the front of every Book of Mormon ever published:

THE TESTIMONY OF THREE WITNESSES
BE IT KNOWN unto all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people, unto whom this work shall come: That we, through the grace of God the Father, and our Lord Jesus Christ, have seen the plates which contain this record, which is a record of the people of Nephi, and also of the Lamanites, their brethren, and also of the people of Jared, who came from the tower of which hath been spoken. And we also know that they have been translated by the gift and power of God, for his voice hath declared it unto us; wherefore we know of a surety that the work is true. And we also testify that we have seen the engravings which are upon the plates; and they have been shown unto us by the power of God, and not of man. And we declare with words of soberness, that an angel of God came down from heaven, and he brought and laid before our eyes, that we beheld and saw the plates, and the engravings thereon; and we know that it is by the grace of God the Father, and our Lord Jesus Christ, that we beheld and bear record that these things are true. And it is marvelous in our eyes. Nevertheless, the voice of the Lord commanded us that we should bear record of it; wherefore, to be obedient unto the commandments of God, we bear testimony of these things. And we know that if we are faithful in Christ, we shall rid our garments of the blood of all men, and be found spotless before the judgment-seat of Christ, and shall dwell with him eternally in the heavens. And the honor be to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Ghost, which is one God. Amen.
OLIVER COWDERY
DAVID WHITMER
MARTIN HARRIS




-8 other men were permitted to hold and handle the golden plates and never denied the event.

Here is their testimony found the front of every Book of Mormon ever published:

THE TESTIMONY OF EIGHT WITNESSES

Be it known unto all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people, unto whom this work shall come: That Joseph Smith, Jun., the Author and Proprietor of this work, has shewn unto us the plates of which hath been spoken, which have the appearance of gold; and as many of the leaves as the said Smith has translated we did handle with our hands; and we also saw the engravings thereon, all of which has the appearance of ancient work, and of curious workmanship. And this we bear record with words of soberness, that the said Smith has shewn unto us, for we have seen and hefted, and know of a surety that the said Smith has got the plates of which we have spoken. And we give our names unto the world, to witness unto the world that which we have seen. And we lie not, God bearing witness of it.
CHRISTIAN WHITMER
JACOB WHITMER
PETER WHITMER, JUNIOR
JOHN WHITMER
HIRAM PAGE
JOSEPH SMITH, SENIOR
HYRUM SMITH
SAMUEL HARRISON SMITH


B. Questions about Joseph Smith's credibility:

comparisons of himself to Jesus

-Joseph might have made some obscure comment about how he was able to able to hold a church together amid intense persecution unlike Christ whose members had to go underground after the 1st century. This statement is true.

contradictions in accounts of his first vision

-That’s why Joseph wrote out the official version of the First Vision in 1838 to stop all misinterpretations or erroneous information that may have been circulated beforehand.


his suspicious past and character

-Give me a break, the Pharisees called Jesus a devil.

false prophecies he made

-When Joseph spoke as a man, he spoke as a man, when he prophesied, he prophesied as Prophet of God, he could have said some things while in idle conversation that were misconstrued later, the same way the chief priests tried to trap Christ, the same way you’re attempting to libel him now.

Some notable prophecies he made that came to pass were:

Prophesied the Civil War in 1832, a quarter century before the actual war.
Prophesied the Mormon Church would fill the entire globe in 1830, the church had less than100 members at the time and were being persecuted.
Prophesied to Stephen Douglas’ face that he would lose to the Presidential election when Stephen Douglas was the odds on favorite. Lincoln was later elected.
Revealed the Word of Wisdom the LDS Health Code to abstain from liquor and tobacco and to eat meat sparingly and lots of vegetables in 1832, Joseph had no medical training-only a 3rd grade education.
Prophesied the Latter Day Saints would be a mighty people in the Rocky Mountains
Prophesied which friends would live and even prophesied his death.
Prophesied in our day that very few women would enjoy bringing children into the world, mostly Mormon women would recognize the blessing of parenthood.

both sides of the story of his 'martydom' and early LDS persecution

-Yes there were 2 sides- he was killed while guaranteed protection by the Governor of Illinois, and hundreds of thugs and cowards rushed his jail cell with black painted faces shot him a dozen times and he died saying “My Lord, My God”. This is the side I believe.


Smith's reliability as a translator - the failed test of the Book of Abraham

-All the of the papyrus from the book of Abraham is not available today, as it disintegrated over time, only small fragments of it exist today about 11-12%. Egyptologists will never be able to translate all of it because it doesn’t exist as it did in Joseph’s day.


Smith's 'inspired'version of the Bible

He s a prophet, most biblical scholars agree there are many portions of the Bible that have been mistranslated, laden with errors. Joseph was qualified to offer his translation because as a Prophet he was able to distinguish what the Prophets of old were trying to say in the books of the Bible.

C. Questions about the integrity of other Mormon Prophets

major changes in Mormon doctrine and revelation

We believe when God wants to let us know more of his light and knowledge he reveals it through our Prophet, and in that light and knowledge if it’s his will that we are asked to do something like gather food for storage so that we’re prepared to help ourselves and neighbors during a catastrophe like Katrina, or a doctrinal change, we accept it.

Article of Faith #9 :


We believe all that God has revealed, all that He does now reveal, and we believe that He will yet reveal many great and important things pertaining to the Kingdom of God.

polygamy, role of blacks, blood atonement

-See Article of Faith #9

We believe all that God has revealed, all that He does now reveal, and we believe that He will yet reveal many great and important things pertaining to the Kingdom of God.

As I stated earlier, we believe when God wants to let us know more of his light and knowledge he reveals it through our Prophet, when we as a people are ready for it, and in that light and knowledge if it’s his will that we are asked to do something like gather food for storage so that we’re prepared to help ourselves and neighbors during a catastrophe like Katrina, we do so, or if God reveals a doctrinal change, we accept it.

Why God wanted the Church to practice polygamy for a while in the 1800s or why a tribe of God’s children weren’t able to hold the Priesthood, is anybody’s guess, but I know that they can now due to Revelation received by our Prophet. This is why blood atonement was done away with-continual modern Revelation by God speaking to the Prophets of our church. Don’t you wish your church had a current Prophet? I feel bad that yours doesn’t, you could listen to ours.


deceptions by the LDS church

-Don’t know of any, and I’m pretty well read in that regard.

changes in prophecy

-News to me


secret ceremonies and masonry

What you call secret -we call sacred. Joseph was a Mason, so what? You can be a Christian and a Mason. Are you going to bash Free Masons now?

In closing I’ve asked you not to misrepresent what my church teaches or believes in other threads but you have continued to do so. You give Christians a bad name, and turn potential Christians away from Christ. If anybody wants to know what my church teaches they can go here and check it out for themselves:


www.lds.org


The Articles of Faith
of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints



1. We believe in God, the Eternal Father, and in His Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost.
2. We believe that men will be punished for their own sins, and not for Adam's transgression.
3. We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.
4. We believe that the first principles and ordinances of the Gospel are: first, Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ; second, Repentance; third, Baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; fourth, Laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost.
5. We believe that a man must be called of God, by prophecy, and by the laying on of hands by those who are in authority, to preach the Gospel and administer in the ordinances thereof.
6. We believe in the same organization that existed in the Primitive Church, namely, apostles, prophets, pastors, teachers, evangelists, and so forth.
7. We believe in the gift of tongues, prophecy, revelation, visions, healing, interpretation of tongues, and so forth.
8. We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly; we also believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God.
9. We believe all that God has revealed, all that He does now reveal, and we believe that He will yet reveal many great and important things pertaining to the Kingdom of God.
10. We believe in the literal gathering of Israel and in the restoration of the Ten Tribes; that Zion (the New Jerusalem) will be built upon the American continent; that Christ will reign personally upon the earth; and, that the earth will be renewed and receive its paradisiacal glory.
11. We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may.
12. We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law.
13. We believe in being honest, true, chaste, benevolent, virtuous, and in doing good to all men; indeed, we may say that we follow the admonition of Paul—We believe all things, we hope all things, we have endured many things, and hope to be able to endure all things. If there is anything virtuous, lovely, or of good report or praiseworthy, we seek after these things.
Joseph Smith

Respectfully-

dbs
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Old 05-04-2007, 02:02 AM   #120
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Quote:
Originally posted by diamond
Some notable prophecies he made that came to pass were:

Prophesied the Civil War in 1832, a quarter century before the actual war.
Prophesied the Mormon Church would fill the entire globe in 1830, the church had less than100 members at the time and were being persecuted.
Prophesied to Stephen Douglas’ face that he would lose to the Presidential election when Stephen Douglas was the odds on favorite. Lincoln was later elected.
Revealed the Word of Wisdom the LDS Health Code to abstain from liquor and tobacco and to eat meat sparingly and lots of vegetables in 1832, Joseph had no medical training-only a 3rd grade education.
Prophesied the Latter Day Saints would be a mighty people in the Rocky Mountains
Prophesied which friends would live and even prophesied his death.
Prophesied in our day that very few women would enjoy bringing children into the world, mostly Mormon women would recognize the blessing of parenthood.
I just read this thread through and admit both sides make some very intersting and valid points, but admittedly these aren't really "prophecies" at all.

In 1832, the slavery issue was already starting to get contentious (ie: the Missouri Compromise, abolitionism made its appearances in the 1820s-30s as well) and questions over whether slavery could expand westward. The nullification crisis happened in 1832 when it looked like South Carolina might even secede then. It wouldn't have been a stretch to believe that a civil war could break out between north and south, if not right away then eventually.

And of course as the founder of a new religion/denomination of a religion (whichever you prefer to all it), he would prophecy the vast expansion of his church. Jesus did the same, Moses did it, nearly every religion believes that they will eventually come to be the global faith.

Predicting a 2-person presidential election is not exactly what I would call "prophecy" either. Neither is foreseeing one's own death when you've founded a religious group that's being persecuted.

Re: "medical" training...this was the 1800s, people knew that excessive meat-eating wasn't good for you and that vegetables were healthy.

Mind you, I come at this having never read any Mormon literature. This is merely a historical viewpoint.

I don't mean to pick on you diamond because there are a few posts in this thread made by all three of the chief debaters (yourself, coemgen, and Ormus) that I would do the same to, you just had the luck of having posted last when I got to the end of the thread.

This is an interesting debate, though. I thoroughly expected to come in here and think "man these posts supporting Mormons are crazy", but you do a good job explaining your faith in the face of some (admittedly legitimate) challenges, diamond.

One great thing about this thread is halfway through I stopped reading so I could watch the South Park episode "All About the Mormons" again, one of my favourite episodes!


dum de dum dum dum....

Surprisingly enough, a lot of Mormons feel this episode is one of the more positive portrayals of Mormonism in popular culture today...
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