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Old 11-15-2004, 02:33 PM   #121
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Originally posted by Irvine511



thank you for the link. i am aware of many of these views, and simply don't agree with them, because they are rooted in religion and not in science or human experience. also, there are certain assumptions it makes about human behavior, about what should and shouldn't be, that i simply cannot accept.
Thanks for checking it out.
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Originally posted by Irvine511

and, on a side note, in relation to the gay-teens-and-suicide thing, U2 had a lot to do with me surviving my adolescence as a deeply closeted gay teen. it may sound melodramatic, but for professed Christians to write a song like "one" ... you can't imagine how much it meant to me. and millions others.
Yes, "One" is my favorite U2 song of all time, maybe even my favorite song of all time. I'm sure you went through a living hell when you had to come out, and as a human being, I feel sorry for you that you had to blind yourself from your peers.

I can relate to you in a way. I'm a hearing impaired college student, a hard worker doing 2 jobs over the weekend, working 12-13 hours every saturday. The work is not what I'm complaining about, but it's never been easy getting over the way I believe that God created me. I think a lot of people don't know what it's like to be me either. I get tired of pretending to hear things I don't hear, getting made fun of, and feeling like the world is breaking me in pieces. I will probably get that treatment all my life. You probably felt the same way. Maybe you still do.

I felt very suicidal in my adolescent years as well. I was a wreck. I owe my survival to God, because my life was in darkness. I had few friends - most of them did witchcraft, drugs, and other stuff like that. But for me to punish my own family like that by taking my own life would break their hearts. That's why I believe so strongly in family and spirituality. I firmly believe that God guided me out of the darkness, and that I owe my life back to him.
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Old 11-15-2004, 02:34 PM   #122
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U2Democrat,

U never did answer if you believed Paul's writings to be true or not. Just curious.

But let me clarify on the gay marriage - No laws to ban it. No laws to call it out for special status either.

I don't know about the banning stuff - I do remember some of the posts being all scripture quoting and stuff. That seems to be the main tell if you are a homophobe.
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Old 11-15-2004, 02:39 PM   #123
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I thought I answered that earlier when I said because Paul's writings were more personal, letters, as opposed to a report, yes I would believe them faster than something else.
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Old 11-15-2004, 02:39 PM   #124
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Quote:
Originally posted by MadelynIris

I am a Christ follower, and hence that is what I believe. Many others out there claim to be Christ followers, but use a self made system, derived from parts of the bible, or otherwise, to base their christian beliefs.
I won't label you "homophobic" or anything like that, I'm not prepared to make a judgment like that about anyone from posts on a message board, and I feel it's not my place to do so (unless someone is making blatantly hateful and ignorant statements, but I think what constitutes that might be different for different people).

I consider myself to be a Christ follower too. Jesus to me is all about unconditional love, acceptance, and empathy, in addition to so many other things. He sought out the "outcasts" in society, did he not?

If that's a "self-made" system, then I guess that's what I have. For me, those values that Jesus represents and taught are in totality more important to me than what is laid about about prohibition of sin in the Bible.

In no way am I saying to "throw out" the Bible or the sin prohibitions. But I know the love and acceptance I have found from Him, and I guess I just want to strive to show others the same. Just to make it clear, I'm not saying you don't want to do that, or judging your religious beliefs.
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Old 11-15-2004, 02:39 PM   #125
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Of course that's the root of it. Political/religious beliefs are very strong in people.
I think you misunderstood me. What I was saying was that if strip AWAY all of the political/religious stuff, that there is something very unreligious/unpolitical, something distinctly and rawly human that provokes peoples' feelings about this.

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I still find it amazing, that with all that I've written in this thread, many of you still consider me to be homophobic and intolerant.
No, I don't think you're homophobic. Intolerant, probably not. But then I still don't know why you oppose gay rights. If you're tolerant of them, have gay relatives/friends, then why do you oppose gay rights?
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Old 11-15-2004, 02:43 PM   #126
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If you're tolerant of them, have gay relatives/friends, then why do you oppose gay rights?
My point exactly, is it possible to have gay relatives/friends, respect them and have a relationship with them and still not believe it's righteous?

?

Sorry, about misinterpreting the other part. For me, I don't think its something else.
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Old 11-15-2004, 02:45 PM   #127
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Originally posted by Macfistowannabe
Thanks for checking it out.
Yes, "One" is my favorite U2 song of all time, maybe even my favorite song of all time. I'm sure you went through a living hell when you had to come out, and as a human being, I feel sorry for you that you had to blind yourself from your peers.

I can relate to you in a way. I'm a hearing impaired college student, a hard worker doing 2 jobs over the weekend, working 12-13 hours every saturday. The work is not what I'm complaining about, but it's never been easy getting over the way I believe that God created me. I think a lot of people don't know what it's like to be me either. I get tired of pretending to hear things I don't hear, getting made fun of, and feeling like the world is breaking me in pieces. I will probably get that treatment all my life. You probably felt the same way. Maybe you still do.

I felt very suicidal in my adolescent years as well. I was a wreck. I owe my survival to God, because my life was in darkness. I had few friends - most of them did witchcraft, drugs, and other stuff like that. But for me to punish my own family like that by taking my own life would break their hearts. That's why I believe so strongly in family and spirituality. I firmly believe that God guided me out of the darkness, and that I owe my life back to him.

we may disagree on a few specific things, but i bet we agree on almost all the important things.

it is amazing what facing real darkness -- hating yourself, suicidal thoughts, etc. -- will do to deepen and strengthen a person. i found strength to deal with my "difference" through a combination of sheer academics (i read a lot about this stuff), U2 (specifically "one" ... but "stay" has resonance, and i've only heard "original of the species" but that's a huge new favorite, and it celebrates uniqueness), and the fact that i have 2 wonderful parents who taught me to value what makes me unique, rather that what makes me fit in.
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Old 11-15-2004, 02:46 PM   #128
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Quote:
Originally posted by MrsSpringsteen

I consider myself to be a Christ follower too. Jesus to me is all about unconditional love, acceptance, and empathy, in addition to so many other things. He sought out the "outcasts" in society, did he not?
He sure did, and he was hated for it by all the religious nuts. I know that if Jesus were to come around, he would socialize with gays, blacks, and non-believing jews who don't accept his message. He has the power to transform troubled people, but since he isn't here in person, I believe we have to look for him. There's my very non-partisan thought on unconditional love.
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Old 11-15-2004, 02:48 PM   #129
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Originally posted by Irvine511

it is amazing what facing real darkness -- hating yourself, suicidal thoughts, etc. -- will do to deepen and strengthen a person.
I agree w/ that 100 percent.

I'm glad your parents taught you that, it certainly shows
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Old 11-15-2004, 02:49 PM   #130
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Originally posted by Macfistowannabe
He sure did, and he was hated for it by all the religious nuts. I know that if Jesus were to come around, he would socialize with gays, blacks, and non-believing jews who don't accept his message. He has the power to transform troubled people, but since he isn't here in person, I believe we have to look for him. There's my very non-partisan thought on unconditional love.
See, you get it. But there are legions of Christians are practicing some corrupted/mutilated form of Christianity that has strayed so far from what Jesus was all about that it's hardly recognizable. It's rather depressing.
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Old 11-15-2004, 02:50 PM   #131
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Instead of debating this again and again we might as well just go and read this thread. It's a long but interesting read.
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Old 11-15-2004, 02:55 PM   #132
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Originally posted by namkcuR


See, you get it. But there are legions of Christians are practicing some corrupted/mutilated form of Christianity that has strayed so far from what Jesus was all about that it's hardly recognizable. It's rather depressing.
I understand Jesus' message, and I believe it's 100% more important than politics. It may seem ignorant to many people on here, but I don't believe in putting someone in the White House who isn't pro-life. If we didn't treat a woman's womb like a concentration camp, I'd be an independant.
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Old 11-15-2004, 03:13 PM   #133
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Originally posted by Macfistowannabe
I understand Jesus' message, and I believe it's 100% more important than politics. It may seem ignorant to many people on here, but I don't believe in putting someone in the White House who isn't pro-life. If we didn't treat a woman's womb like a concentration camp, I'd be an independant.
Well, I strongly disagree on that issue but I shall refrain from arguing here/now. And I don't think, where religion/politics are concened, that one is more important the other. I think they go hand-in-hand. They are cousins.
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Old 11-15-2004, 03:13 PM   #134
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I honestly do not care about madmen and charlatans from the first century and what they had to say on morality. Today we live in pluralist first world societies, centuries of revolutionary ideas have created the conditions where personal freedom exists.

You cannot advocate free speech but only if it's agreeable. Nor can you advocate sexual freedoms but only within certain parameters. Let people live their lives however they like as long as it does not injur or infringe on the rights of others. Free society, live the way you want and let others do the same - without exception.

These threads always go the same way, people throw around the same arguments until somebody blurts out something really dumb (last time it was "I am not a homophobe because I am not scared of them") and the entire thing burns.
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Old 11-15-2004, 05:06 PM   #135
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Quote:
Originally posted by namkcuR


I don't think, where religion/politics are concened, that one is more important the other. I think they go hand-in-hand. They are cousins.
I refer to it as faith, being that religion means something else - bridging the gap between you and God. When I heard my first round of U2 songs, I thought, "these guys aren't bad...", but when I discovered how Christianity influenced maybe half of their songs, I took them for real because the mainstream doesn't allow too many bands with deep spiritual roots to sell as many albums as U2, or anything close.

I would have to say faith is way more important. Without it, we would never get over the loss of a loved one. With it, we know they are in a better place.

How much are politics going to matter when we leave this world?
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