a conservative america in the context of global society and culture

[Macfistowannabe]

first, thank you for your honesty. i think you probably speak for a lot of people, but i still find it homophobic.

You must think the Judeo-Christian God is a homophobe.

 

[FizzingWhizzbees]

No. I said if they make that claim based on Scripture, we should be able to discuss the claim without resorting to calling one side a racist. That is not to say that we would find any merit in such a claim.

So a person claiming that their interpretation of the Bible led them to believe Black people are not entitled to the same rights as white people, would not automatically be a racist?

 

[FizzingWhizzbees]

I disagree with you on this. For one thing, we should be concerned with the real homophobes who commit hate crimes rather than the "homophobes" who disagree with the lifestyle.

So are the only real racists those who attack Black people? The only real anti-semites those who desecrate Jewish graves?

We should also practice tolerance LEFT and RIGHT, by allowing viewpoints by both sides, as long as they are respectful and well-thought, although we are completely entitled to disagree.

And we should also learn to recognise that there are many gay people who post here and who have the right to enjoy this message board without being faced with a barrage of homophobic nonsense. How can you respectfully say you think there's something wrong with someone because of their sexuality?

 

[MadelynIris]

And we should also learn to recognise that there are many gay people who post here and who have the right to enjoy this message board without being faced with a barrage of homophobic nonsense. How can you respectfully say you think there's something wrong with someone because of their sexuality?

This is sooo weak. Again, is anyone saying there is anything wrong with anyone because of their sexuality? NO!

All we are saying is that we don't believe it to be right. It's that simple, our belief.

Everyone of us do things that others don't believe are right. That's the way it is. It has nothing to do with oppression, racism, and has little to do with civil rights.

Is this homophobic nonsense?

Mark

 

[MrsSpringsteen]

Everyone of us do things that others don't believe are right. That's the way it is.

I'd respectfully suggest that perhaps the gay people here don't see it that way, that they see it as an "attack" on them as people. In other words, perhaps they feel being gay is just as much a part of them as the color of their skin

It's not something they are "doing", it's simply who they are

I don't want to presume to speak for them, that's just my viewpoint.

 

[Macfistowannabe]

Originally posted by Macfistowannabe
I disagree with you on this. For one thing, we should be concerned with the real homophobes who commit hate crimes rather than the "homophobes" who disagree with the lifestyle.

Originally posted by FizzingWhizzbees
So are the only real racists those who attack Black people? The only real anti-semites those who desecrate Jewish graves?

There is nothing bibical that supports racism to the best of my knowledge, and I highly doubt there is. One reason slavery wasn't taken over was because Jesus didn't come to start a political revolution, but a spiritual revolution. I've never had anything against blacks, and anyone who does is arguably a disgusting person.

Anti-semites are disgusting people too. Mel Gibson caught a lot of unnessesary heat for his film because he portrayed the religious fanatics who crucified Jesus as scripture supported it. Does that make him an anti-semite? I doubt it.

There is a strong difference in how we both perceive and define these people. I tried very hard to come in agreement with what a homophobe really is and how the left perceives them. Some people came into terms of agreement, while others basically insisted that the Judeo-Christian god is a hateful homophobe.

Originally posted by Macfistowannabe
We should also practice tolerance LEFT and RIGHT, by allowing viewpoints by both sides, as long as they are respectful and well-thought, although we are completely entitled to disagree.

Originally posted by FizzingWhizzbees
And we should also learn to recognise that there are many gay people who post here and who have the right to enjoy this message board without being faced with a barrage of homophobic nonsense. How can you respectfully say you think there's something wrong with someone because of their sexuality?

I recognize that, and I've tried to be respectful of them when I politely offer an explanation as to why some people disagree with their lifestyle. All I'm saying is that just because someone may disagree with your lifestyle, it doesn't mean they hate you. I could disagree with gangsta rap because I might feel it promotes violence and loose sex, but someone somewhere is going to call me an intolerant racist for it.

I just don't get it...

 

[MadelynIris]

first, thank you for your honesty. i think you probably speak for a lot of people, but i still find it homophobic, and here's why:

1. you will only find out if your children are gay when they are older, if they are gay, they're gay right now, and have been since brith, probably, and even if you think it's unnatural, it is not unnatural to your child.

Right - I think you are right about gays being born that way. I do think there is a percentage that do make a conscience choice, maybe these people are bi, asexual, or confused. I do believe there are some people in the grey.

And yes, it seems unatural to me, because, well I'm not gay.

2. if your child, hypothetically turns out to be gay, i think you'll find it hard NOT to treat their spouse as one of your family. you apparently love your children very much, doesn't it logically follow that you would love who they love? don't you owe it to your child to support their relationships, especially in a world that makes it so difficult to do so? wouldn't you want to encourage monogamy, commitment, and family? doesn't your child's needs outweigh whatever theoretical objections you might have?

to ignore your child's spouse and treat him like less of a member of the family -- and, therefore, as less of a human being -- might make you feel righteous or morally consistent, but i can guarantee you that you'll be causing untold psychological damage on your child.

I would still love the spouse, respect them etc... But I wouldn't recognise them as part of our family. I don't think this would be damaging to their psyche, because they would know my beliefs, having lived with me for years.

why would you force your child to choose between love and family, when the two should so easily compliment each other?

I would not force them to choose. What they choose to do with their life is up to them. Would I endorse it and call it right? No. It's not about 'feeling' righteous. It's about making a stance, clear and open so that everyone knows what I believe is right and wrong.

That's a pretty cool article. Thanks for sharing.

 

[Irvine511]

You must think the Judeo-Christian God is a homophobe.

i think people who (mis)use their interpretation of the Judeo-Christian God and cling to theological certainties that collapse upon close scrutiny and appeal to fear to justify irrational beliefs are homophobes.

 

[Irvine511]

This is sooo weak. Again, is anyone saying there is anything wrong with anyone because of their sexuality? NO!

All we are saying is that we don't believe it to be right. It's that simple, our belief.

Everyone of us do things that others don't believe are right. That's the way it is. It has nothing to do with oppression, racism, and has little to do with civil rights.

Is this homophobic nonsense?

Mark

yes, it is, if you cannot offer anything other than you "don't believe it to be right." why? can you justify your beliefs without resorting to the Bible? has your experience validated these prejudices? if, as you say, you're not saying there's anything wrong with the person because of their sexuality, yet you say that you dont' believe it to be right, there seems to me to be a contradiction there. this isn't a hate-the-sin-love-the-sinner thing, but an attempt to compromise inherited beliefs with real world experience.

 

[Irvine511]

I recognize that, and I've tried to be respectful of them when I politely offer an explanation as to why some people disagree with their lifestyle. All I'm saying is that just because someone may disagree with your lifestyle, it doesn't mean they hate you. I could disagree with gangsta rap because I might feel it promotes violence and loose sex, but someone somewhere is going to call me an intolerant racist for it.

I just don't get it...

could you please, please offer me a definition of the "gay lifestyle"? because i don't know what it is, i only know what other people tell me it is.

also, gangsta rap is criticized, sometimes most stridently, by african-americans themselves. no, i don't think you're a racist, because you have specific objections -- promoting violence -- where, in the real world, there are real victims.

homosexuality, however ... hard to see where there's a victim in that.

 

[Macfistowannabe]

i think people who (mis)use their interpretation of the Judeo-Christian God and cling to theological certainties that collapse upon close scrutiny and appeal to fear to justify irrational beliefs are homophobes.

Here's a link for you. http://www.web-ministry.com/sin/homosexuality/myths.php

Informative site, but I do caution that it may offend your views.

 

[verte76]

My feelings on this matter do reflect the "hate the sin, love the sinner" notion. Furthermore, and this is my own personal opinion, I feel like the only valid judge of sinful human behavior is God, not a human being. The Pope and other Catholic authorities have denounced homosexuality, but I have some real issues with this and this is not going to get me excommunicated. I just don't think it's for me to judge. Again, this is just my purple tuppence's worth. If you don't agree with this, fine.

 

[MadelynIris]

you say that you dont' believe it to be right, there seems to me to be a contradiction there

No contradition. I'm having a hard time understanding why you don't understand what I'm saying.

No problem with gay people. I just don't uphold homosexuality as right. There are other things I don't uphold as right either.... like Amway.

 

[Irvine511]

Here's a link for you. http://www.web-ministry.com/sin/homosexuality/myths.php

Informative site, but I do caution that it may offend your views.

thank you for the link. i am aware of many of these views, and simply don't agree with them, because they are rooted in religion and not in science or human experience. also, there are certain assumptions it makes about human behavior, about what should and shouldn't be, that i simply cannot accept. for example:

"Gay parents are making a dangerous statement to their children: lesbian mothers are saying that fathers are not important, and homosexual fathers are saying that mothers are not important. More and more social observers see the importance of both fathers and mothers in children's lives; one of their roles is to teach boys what it means to be a boy and teach girls what it means to be a girl."

i really can't respond to that, it's so far from my experience and so far from the experience of gay parents.

i could go through and, one-by-one, respond to each of the "myths," but that would take way too much time.

but thank you for sharing.

and, on a side note, in relation to the gay-teens-and-suicide thing, U2 had a lot to do with me surviving my adolescence as a deeply closeted gay teen. it may sound melodramatic, but for professed Christians to write a song like "one" ... you can't imagine how much it meant to me. and millions others.

 

[MadelynIris]

I'm going to apologize for the Amway remark before I get slammed.

Sorry.

But here is the gist -

Just because I don't think it's right, DOES NOT MAKE ME HOMOPHOBIC!

Thanks,
Mark

 

[MadelynIris]

and, on a side note, in relation to the gay-teens-and-suicide thing, U2 had a lot to do with me surviving my adolescence as a deeply closeted gay teen. it may sound melodramatic, but for professed Christians to write a song like "one" ... you can't imagine how much it meant to me. and millions others.

Dude, that is awesome. Amen to that, and to the love delivered by U2 to you.

Mark

 

[Irvine511]

No contradition. I'm having a hard time understanding why you don't understand what I'm saying.

No problem with gay people. I just don't uphold homosexuality as right. There are other things I don't uphold as right either.... like Amway.

because it's inconsistent. like saying, "no problems with left-handers, i just don't like their handwriting."

 

[verte76]

When I'm thinking about morality, I think about what and/or who exactly is harmed by a behavior pattern. It's easy to see how murder and violence cause harm. Homosexuality is a different matter. I mean, heck, every time I feel a hateful emotion I'm committing a sin. We Catholics have the sacrament of reconciliation--better known as confession--for a reason. I just don't object to homosexuality as much as I do other more blatantly damaging forms of behavior.

 

[MadelynIris]

because it's inconsistent. like saying, "no problems with left-handers, i just don't like their handwriting."

No. It's more like, no problem with adulterers as people (I'd have dinner with them, hang out, drink some beer etc...) but if the issue came up that required my endorsement of their lifestyle, I would not, and I would let them know that I think it's wrong.



Mark

 

[Irvine511]

No. It's more like, no problem with adulterers as people (I'd have dinner with them, hang out, drink some beer etc...) but if the issue came up that required my endorsement of their lifestyle, I would not, and I would let them know that I think it's wrong.

Mark

ah, but there's a victim with adultery. this is why i would never get involved with a married man -- and, believe me, there are *many* married men who want to experiment with another male -- because someone is getting hurt, and you're enabling someone to break their vows.

who is hurt when two men, or two women, date each other?

instead of stating what you believe, can you tell me why you *think* homosexuality is wrong?

 

[deep]

No. It's more like, no problem with adulterers as people (I'd have dinner with them, hang out, drink some beer etc...) but if the issue came up that required my endorsement of their lifestyle, I would not, and I would let them know that I think it's wrong.



Mark

Yes, and ignorant people had laws against adultry on the books and enfonced them.

Thank god, that is no longer the case in rational countries.

There are many behaviors and personal choices I believe are wrong.
I do not need ALL my beliefs codified in law to validate them for myself.

 

[MadelynIris]

ah, but there's a victim with adultery.

ahhh.. but is there a victim in adultery? No one is getting hurt are they?

 

[Irvine511]

ahhh.. but is there a victim in adultery? No one is getting hurt are they?

if the spouse finds out, yes, there's a clear victim with an institution (marriage) at stake. there's deception, lying, etc.

 

[MadelynIris]

I don't believe there should be any laws banning gay marriage or changing the current definition of marriage.

No laws.

 

[Irvine511]

can you answer my questions:

1. why do you *think* homosexuality is wrong
2. who is hurt by a homosexual relationship

 

[U2democrat]

can you answer my questions:

1. why do you *think* homosexuality is wrong
2. who is hurt by a homosexual relationship

i'm curious too. I don't want to try and change your mind and I hope you don't present your answer in a way trying to chane mine, let's just put our beliefs, (if you don't mind), on the table.

 

[namkcuR]

I am totally and completely 100% FOR gay rights.

In my experience I've found that people who think homosexuality is wrong think so because they don't know it. People fear/turn away from what they don't know. I know that's a very oversimplified way of putting it, but I believe if you strip away all the political/religious stuff that goes with it, and all of the other stuff that goes with it, that that is what the root of it is.

 

[U2democrat]

I am totally and completely 100% FOR gay rights.

In my experience I've found that people who think homosexuality is wrong think so because they don't know it. People fear/turn away from what they don't know. I know that's a very oversimplified way of putting it, but I believe if you strip away all the political/religious stuff that goes with it, and all of the other stuff that goes with it, that that is what the root of it is.

Amen!

 

[MadelynIris]

In my experience I've found that people who think homosexuality is wrong think so because they don't know it. People fear/turn away from what they don't know. I know that's a very oversimplified way of putting it, but I believe if you strip away all the political/religious stuff that goes with it, and all of the other stuff that goes with it, that that is what the root of it is.

I don't fear it or turn away from it because I don't know it. Like I said in previous emails, I have gay friends, relatives, family friends. I hang out with them, have a relationship with them etc...

but I believe if you strip away all the political/religious stuff that goes with it, and all of the other stuff that goes with it, that that is what the root of it is.

Of course that's the root of it. Political/religious beliefs are very strong in people. At least, my spiritual beliefs are. I believe in the NT, and I believe in Paul's writings. I think he put it all together, and I believe it.

So you are going to prod me to deliver a reason why I believe something, but do not use the foundation/framework of the Bible to do it. Does that make sense to ask someone who cherishes it so, and believes it? I am a Christ follower, and hence that is what I believe. Many others out there claim to be Christ followers, but use a self made system, derived from parts of the bible, or otherwise, to base their christian beliefs. I personally find these scriptures to be clear about certain sins.

I still find it amazing, that with all that I've written in this thread, many of you still consider me to be homophobic and intolerant.

It's love baby, love for you all. But is anyone here prepared to yield to me, that one can believe the way I do, and not be labeled homophobic or intolerant?

I've seen others get banned for similar beliefs. Maybe they didn't defend with as many words as I did.

 

[U2democrat]

I don't believe people were banned just for those beliefs, there was probably more to it.


Anyway no I don't think you're homophobic for disagreeing with the lifestyle. You said so yourself that you don't want to ban gay marriage (I think it was you). That's not in the least bit homophobic. I understand where you're coming from, and i respectfully disagree.