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Old 11-14-2004, 05:50 PM   #46
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Originally posted by MadelynIris
It's not about bigotry or homophobia. It's about a belief system based on the Bible (and yes, that makes it a theological discussion).
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Which is fine, but to me, that's got nothing to do with whether or not two gay men or two lesbians should be allowed to marry in a SECULAR state.
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Old 11-14-2004, 05:54 PM   #47
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Which is fine, but to me, that's got nothing to do with whether or not two gay men or two lesbians should be allowed to marry in a SECULAR state.
Agreed. Except when they take it to the polls, then people will vote based on a belief system (not saying you, or all people, but they will).

I was trying to bait U2Dem into a theological discussion, but that deserved another thread anyway.

WMR,
Mark
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Old 11-14-2004, 05:55 PM   #48
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Originally posted by MadelynIris
Do you think Paul was pretty messed up? (Most of the new testament theology based on his writings).

Just curious.
what do you mean by "messed up"?
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Old 11-14-2004, 05:56 PM   #49
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Originally posted by anitram


Which is fine, but to me, that's got nothing to do with whether or not two gay men or two lesbians should be allowed to marry in a SECULAR state.
That's the way I feel. We are talking about secular unions, not what goes on in our churches, synagogues or whatever.
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Old 11-14-2004, 05:57 PM   #50
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I mean, do you think he is not to be believed? Do you think his writings are good and true?

Or, na. Not really? I mean he wrote half of the new testament.

Mark
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Old 11-14-2004, 05:59 PM   #51
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Paul is an exception. His writing is more personal, letters. That's different from writing the rest as history. Know what i mean?
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Old 11-14-2004, 06:00 PM   #52
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So you support appeasing terrorists by trying to prevent them feeling anger towards America due to the 'godless' nature of American society? Does this extend to foreign policy? Perhaps if America were to reconsider some aspects of her foreign policy terrorists would feel less anger towards America too.
There is nothing we can say to terrorists that will make them stop what they're doing. It's like trying to tell your next door neighbor to stop smoking. If there were any other way to send a message to them, let me know. My ears are wide open. But one thought will always remain in my head: Radical Terror from Islamic Extremists enforce a hate system rather than preaching a faith, and respecting those who choose not to accept it.

On September 11, 2001, we all asked why anyone would do such a thing to America. I'd be interested in seeing other perspectives, but my belief is that we should promote a positive society rather than exposing the worst in us. I doubt that the porn industry will go out of business anytime soon, nor will they stop targeting minors. I doubt that TV producers will trade ratings with an uplifting message. Sadly, we anger terrorists, as well as many people in this country, when we overexpose sexuality on TV. Yet when we preach a positive message, we abandon it before long.

So yes, I would want to make an effort to calm the Middle East down altogether. Nobody wants terrorists to have anger toward their country. We need to show them another side of America, and why our freedom is a good thing.
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Old 11-14-2004, 06:10 PM   #53
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Ya, I'm sticking strictly with the NT here, and landing on Paul's writings because, well he wrote half of the NT, and was there and saw Jesus, heard him speak, and saw the whole picture, with verified writings while the other apostles were still alive.

So, when you are saying he was the exception, what do you mean?

The only writings in the new testament from a historical perspective (narrative) were the 4 Gospels, Luke being the one that carries the most historical weight (verified the most with historical links). Most Christians go with the Gospels as being accurate (not a lot of controversy in them).

So where are you at with Paul's writings? Hold true or no.

Oui, Non, eh?

Mark
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Old 11-14-2004, 06:15 PM   #54
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So you support appeasing terrorists by trying to prevent them feeling anger towards America due to the 'godless' nature of American society? Does this extend to foreign policy? Perhaps if America were to reconsider some aspects of her foreign policy terrorists would feel less anger towards America too.
You guys should read "Imperial Hubris" by the guy that just resigned from the CIA. Unbelievable how this guy has studied Bin Laden for 15 years at the CIA, and how true this whole 'godless' thing is in their justification of Fatwah (spelling?).

Bin Laden just got persmission from clerics that he respects to use nukes against america. He had to make sure it was in line with the Koran, based on scripture before he would do it.

The CIA is now tracking Fatwahs, as real declarations of war against the US. What do you think about that?

Scary.

Mark
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Old 11-14-2004, 06:16 PM   #55
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Originally posted by MadelynIris
Ya, I'm sticking strictly with the NT here, and landing on Paul's writings because, well he wrote half of the NT, and was there and saw Jesus, heard him speak, and saw the whole picture, with verified writings while the other apostles were still alive.
Really?

I thought it was commonly held that Paul never met Jesus and was in Tarsus at the time of Jesus' presence in the Galilee and then he returned to Jerusalem after the crucifixion?
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Old 11-14-2004, 06:17 PM   #56
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My point was that for some reason, terrorists find the USA to be a godless society, and unfortunately, all they see in this country is how we demoralize our women with hip hop culture, flaunt the worst of us on reality TV, and elsewhere. We should make an effort to prevent them from being so angry at us, and I've always found that our culture strikes a chord with them.

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Total foolishness, the United States should stand for individual liberty and freedom; freedom of religion, freedom of speech and expression. Firstly using terrorism as an excuse to pursue a social agenda is dodgy, secondly appeasement will not work with these groups, they will see weakness in your actions and if you want to show the world how weak and cowardly America is then there is nothing better than bending over, abandoning your principles and asking the agressor to be gentle.
I do believe in freedom of expression, but in my eyes, we take it too far. I don't have a "social agenda" that exists beyond myself. All I am doing is expressing my views.

Of course we can't be gentle with terrorists. We have the whole world pissed off at us for not being gentle with them. I'm not going to bash the president, or his opposers, and I feel very neutral about the Iraq situation. On one hand, I supported the war because I had faith in our intelligence system. Both republicans and democrats believed that Iraq was focused on building WMD's. Now it's been over a year, and we don't know for sure if they ever had any.

On the other hand, I respect the government because we've caught many involved in terrorist organizations, and have captured and killed them. We've destroyed many terrorist training camps. Whether or not we agree with the war, we haven't done everything wrong. I have a hard time getting over these extreme human rights groups who do IN FACT have an agenda. They're telling us that we can't kill or imprison terrorists. I refuse to believe that most democrats believe it's wrong to bring justice to terrorists, AND I do in fact believe that many of the liberals in my country are patriotic even if they're unhappy with their president.
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Old 11-14-2004, 06:18 PM   #57
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I think that it shows there are questionable factions within the "Religion of Peace". I also think that it demonstrates why this war, in many ways WWIV (The third world war was the Cold War) must be won, Al Qaeda and such groups are in many ways apocalyptic in nature and I do not want to see their armageddon come to pass.
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Old 11-14-2004, 06:21 PM   #58
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sorry - no seeing of Jesus other than on the road - my mistyping.

But he knew the message, as preached by others during Jesus' life.
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Old 11-14-2004, 06:23 PM   #59
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Originally posted by Macfistowannabe
Gay marriage is asking for another 9/11 because it should never be an issue that represents our country. It's unnatural, God didn't design men for men and vise versa.
Another 9/11????



What??

I am not in favor of marriage, regardless. But you can't deny gay people from enjoying the same things that hetrosexuals enjoy....
That's the fundamental issue.
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Old 11-14-2004, 06:33 PM   #60
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Originally posted by Windmilllane


Another 9/11???? What??
I am not in favor of marriage, regardless. But you can't deny gay people from enjoying the same things that hetrosexuals enjoy....
That's the fundamental issue.
I cleared the heat on that post long ago. I stated my case after I got my first reply.
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