9/11: The most over-rated thing ever?

[BAW]

i used to chat with a guy my age in pakistan back in 97/98. he was muslim, and it would've been interesting to hear what it's like now over there, and even his opinion on what happened.

We were very close friends with a Muslin family from Gaza a few years ago. We were neighbors and got to be close with their extended family and friends. We exchanged Christmas gifts and went to soccer games together, it was a really nice friendship. We asked alot of questions about their culture and about the conflict in their homeland and they were always glad to answer our questions.

After 9/11, we noticed that they weren't quite as friendly and when we would go into the store they owned, conversation wasn't what it used to be. The last time my husband went into the store, the husband was almost hostile to him, really raging about what the Americans are doing to the Muslims of the world and if he could, he would send his money back home to defend his people, etc. It was really scary and unfortunately, our friendship has ended.

We didn't want it that way and had no problem with them being Muslim but I honestly think the pressure was too great for him to keep the friendship going. His store is now up for sale and I think they are leaving the country. Its very sad. I really liked them.

 

[U2Bama]

Sharky, I can definitely understand and appreciate what you said about the local nature of what happened to you. I do think some people around the U.S. got a bit trendy in the aftermath and then did little about it. However, I don't want to seem that way in telling you my experience.

My wife and I had planned a trip to NYC and Rochester/Syracuse several months earlier, for September 19-23. We were planning to visit your city for a few days during the week, then to head up to Syracuse and Rochester to watch my wife's college football team and visit her sister.

When the attacks occurred, we did not even think about our trip for the first few days as that was not where our minds were. Then we heard that airlines were allowing cancellations and such. We thought about it briefly but decided to go forward with our plans as Mayor Giuliani and others were encouraging people to visit - as they normally would, not to gawk at the attack site, but to continue with business trips, vacations, and the usual.

We had 14 people on our flight from Birmingham to LaGuardia, and the airport was desolate when we landed. We arrived at our hotel at about 10 on a Wednesday night. We decided to go to the bar around the corner for a beer, and on our way back, stopped to look at a memorial that had been set up on a table at the Fire Station next foor to our hotel. The station, on 58th Street next to Carnegie Suites, had lost 6 men plus a district supervisor, and all 7 men were pictured, and the table adorned with flowers, toy fire trucks and stuffed animals. While we were looking at it, an NYPD cruiser pulled up on the curb next to us. A uniformed officer got out and walked up to the table, took off his hat, and began to cry and tell the guys "goodbye." He was well over 6 feet tall and would probably intimidate the toughest street criminal but acted like anyone would after losing a bunch of friends who he probably saw every day.

The next day, we had planned to see St. Patrick's Cathedral because I had always seen pictures of it and I wanted to see it up close. When we walked up to it, we noticed several firefighters and police officers in their formal attire. Soon, we say a corps of bagpipers assembling on a corner. What followed was a full funeral procession down 5th Avenue for a fallen FDNY lieutenant. That really put things into perspective for us. Lined up at attention while the procession passed were FDNY & NYPD & Port Authority officers, some in formal uniforms, some in their working uniforms on a break from their shift, and even FEMA agents in their recovery clothes. The firefighter was carried on the back of a fire truck from Ypsilanti, Michigan because his station's truck had apparently been destroyed.

One thing that I noticed several times was the contribution of police and fire departments from around the U.S. We were walking near Times Square later that day and saw firefighters from Los Angeles County and Los Angeles City returning from their shifts at the World Trade Center site; and while we were in Rockefeller Center, I saw a guy wearing an Alabama hat, and after speaking to him found out that he and the 2 guys with him were from the Sheriff's Department in Alabama's smallest county and had been up there working the first of two 10-day shifts on forensics and recovery. Nothing that I had seen could compare to what they had seen in working at ground zero, but I didn't dare ask them about it because they were there to do a job rather than to give a press conference to tourists.

This was the first time my wife and I had ever been to New York, and I must admit that I used to always think it was a big scary city. But that is not what I felt when visiting it. If we stayed at a hotel in Birmingham, Alabama, we would never think about venturing around to the corner bar for a beer at 10:30 p.m., but in New York, we felt perfectly safe. And merchants and residents alike were very friendly to us; I bought a hot dog from a cart vendor in Central Park, and he needed exact change because business had been so slow, but he thanked me for visiting (I guess he picked up on my accent?). People on our return flight home thanked us for visiting their city and hoped we would come again. We rode the Statton (sp) Island Ferry in order to get our only view of the Statue of LIberty and two girls who attended Yeshiva University but lived on the Island were making their first trip back into the city since September 11 and were asking us what the city was like.

We did see a lot of vendors selling 9-11 and patriotic souvenirs, but most of them were being bought by locals. I even saw some of the Osama bulls-eye shirts for sale down around Soho or Canal Street, for $7. I must confess: I bought an American flag decal flag for my car because there were NONE to be found back home in Alabama!

Needless to say, I liked your city a lot; it's a great place and I hope that I did not trivialize it by visiting it at an inappropriate time. I hope to go back again some time and see more of it, as 2 full days are not really enough.

And to relate to what Bono's American Wife was saying about the shop owner, my wife and I had a favorite restaurant just down the road from our neighborhood here in Alabama. It was a Middle Eastern deli and grill owned by a guy from Qatar whom we considered a friend. He had the best falaffel sandwiches, chicken wraps, and sautted mushrooms we had ever had, and sometimes we would make a meal of of his humous dip with pita bread. After September 11, it seemed that business slowed, but he said he was doing alright whenever I was in there. Then he didn't open for a few days and I saw he and some friends moving his equipment on a weekend; I stopped by and said he was closing down for good. I know that several local police officers were frequent customers of his and would often stop by and chat with him and make sure he was not being harassed after 9-11, but unfortunately they couldn't help keep him open. We miss him and we miss the great food her served.

~U2Alabama

 

[foray]

Anthony,

It's all good to be a more eloquent speaker on Ravenstar's behalf, but you've kind of missed the point in why ppl here are upset.

By now, we know what Ravenstar's intentions were. I think what the Americans (and some others) want to hear is an apology, not for her statements, but for the initial boo-boo of her callous tone. She said something along the lines of "oh god, do I suck at explaining things" but that is not an apology.

What she did is akin to going to someone's funeral and saying callous things about the deceased in front of the deceased's living family. Certainly, she may lack tact and have her original points come across later, but the gesture was definitely not tasteful.


foray

 

[Zoomerang96]

i believe, personally, that if one is tired of hearing about 9/11 they simply ignore it.

but to say its the most overrated thing ever... is just rediculous.

i cant believe this thread was made... :S

i mean even if someone feels this way, surely they could use more tact.

this is actually, a very disappointing thread.

when innocent people die, everyone loses.

 

[daisybean]

I also understand what you are saying about not seeing the world outside of the the US. I saw firsthand 2 instances of Hindus being singled out or harassed within one week of 9/11.

Where I live, people are not as, well informed, I think is the best word for it. After the attacks, a lot of the people I knew, who I don't associate with anymore would say things like "We should go in there and bomb those Sand N@ggers," "I think we should just nuke every country that has terrorists in it." The area is 99% white, there are literally two black men, and one Arab family who live here. Before the attacks most of the people would hurl insults at the black men....one of them even woke up to find a burning cross in their yard, and this was a year and a half ago. Since the attacks, the Arab family has since moved away..they were basically run out of town. At the local BK, a group of travelling Iraqiis, who live in Canada and were going to NYC, were refused service by the manager. I just happened to be in there when the manager told them that they do not accept Canadian currency...however, they never had a problem taking Canadian currency before or even after this family came in.

 

[AcrobatMan]

I saw one elderly Hindu man wearing a turban walk into a McDonald's and the whole place went quiet. He looked around like he wanted to cry and walked right back out the door. I wanted to yell at these people "he's a Hindu you idiots, do you ever read the papers or watch anything besides the Simpsons?" "Do you know the difference between a Hindu and a Muslim and if not, why?"

Methinks you saw a Sikh & not a Hindu.

AcrobatMan

 

[oliveu2cm]

Angela H & Tyler- thank you both for your posts, which touched me very much.

This has never happened in America before. We are learning as a nation and as people how to grieve. We don't know the "rules" on over-exposure- we don't know the boarder between respect and disrespect (meaning, do we focus on 9/11 memorials on TV or do we pretend it didn't happen? where is the medium?) What may be too much coverage for someone is actually just enough for others, where they can seek comfort from it.

I'm not saying I agree with the way people are trying to make money off the tragedy. Just talking about the coverage and exposure.

I don't think America is saying it's worse than any other tragedy- I know the Americans (including myself) that I know are not saying this. It's just we're learning how to handle and grieve the loss America suffered. We are also a highly scrutinized nation, so more people are going to notice coverage of 9/11 and it will seem that we are saying "this is the worst thing that has ever happened period" when obviously, we are not.

I don't think anyone really knows what to do- and not everyone would be happy with the decision anyway.

 

[Screaming Flower]

thanks for posting your story bama. i always enjoy your posts because i feel like you always see the big picture.

and foray - you just hit the nail on the head.

 

[sharky]

Bama- we like tourists like you. Come back any time.

foray- I agree about how we don't have a precedent when it comes to covering a tragedy like this-- there weren't as many news outlets vying for coverage in 1963 when Kennedy died-- but we do have a precedence when it comes to Americans being ignorant about the world around us and unfortunately, its not a positive one.

 

[BAW]

Methinks you saw a Sikh & not a Hindu.

AcrobatMan

That's very possible...I hate making a mistake like that when I'm basically complaining about other people not knowing the difference between and Indian and an Arab. Thank you AcrobatMan.

 

[Anthony]

It's all good to be a more eloquent speaker on Ravenstar's behalf, but you've kind of missed the point in why ppl here are upset.

With all due respect, I don't think I have missed the point. I said it before and I'll say it again, RavenStar admitted to what her intentions were. Without impugning as to her honesty, I will just trust her when she says that her original intention was what I and others have discussed, as well as her own recantations.

She may not have apologised, but that is to her own discretion. Just imagine what a tedious place FYM would be if everyone who ever said anything remotely wrong had to be asked to apologise. I understood her point well enough, if a little baffled at first. This is evidently because, as I said in my post, I was not personally involved with the tragedy and hence can probably control my emotions with more ease - which is really the point of the thread in a roundabout sort of way.

What she did is akin to going to someone's funeral and saying callous things about the deceased in front of the deceased's living family.

I don't think it is. She may have phrased things callously, but she did not start naming people individually and maliciously try to upset the 'family members'. Had she gone around saying how everybody who perished on that terrible day had it coming to them and other horrendous conclusions (which HAVE been stated in this forum before, with no apology coming after it) - that would have been different. At best, she phrased it wrong. At worst, she may have been too analytical about it, without considering the human side of it all.

This isn't a funeral, needless to say, its a thread asking some questions. Some people, and not ALL the Americans in this forum - might I add, found those questions too disturbing and unsettling, understandably so, I think I would too. However, some people also were able to recognise the point, and some interesting discussions followed that may have arrived at some great conclusions. I for one feel that I learned something truly important.

I don't think there will be an apology (I think she would have done so already, if she had felt the need to). If this thread upsets you, please don't read it. Otherwise, let the discussion go on.

Ant.

 

[diamond]

Ant.-
The point is she has little respect for the dead, who died innocently, and you more or less have given her callous view a 'pass' re this matter.

An observation only-

Dave

 

[Anthony]

The point is she has little respect for the dead, who died innocently, and you more or less have given her callous view a 'pass' re this matter.

A good observation, at that. I can't ascertain for certain, as you have, what respect she has for the dead, but you are quite right that I have given her a 'pass' in this matter. That her view should be expressed and modified as she wishes to.

Its not the first time someone has seemingly appeared to have been 'callous'. In fact, it wouldn't have been the first time if she had overtly come out with a callous or malicious sentiment; my point is nearly no one in this forum has ever apologised for anything. I pick up callous comments from almost all threads all the time, however, I only ever demand people to improve their powers of argument, not to apologise for past mistakes.

I don't make people apologise, its not my place to do so. However, as I said before, if you do not like this thread, please do not read it.

Ant.

 

[Dreadsox]

My First Post

On September 12 I was awake at 2:00 AM holding my infant son in my arms. He, shall we say, is not a sleeper.

As I held him in my arms, I watched the news reporting about the people of Flight 93 and their phone calls home. It was at that time that I finally allowed myself to cry. When I heard the stories of mothers and fathers calling to say goodbye to their wives and children I could take no more.

Loss off life, be it an earthquake, a plane crash, disease, poverty, or a car crash is a horrible thing. Life is a gift, and when it perishes, it should be mourned. It is not something that belongs on the scales of my suffering is greater than your suffering, or the way I died is worse than the way you died.

To me, one of the more sickening thing about the events of September 11 is that it was an attrocity committed by human beings against human beings in the name of God and religion. I know this is nothing new in the history of the world. But it seems that as I look through the lens of hindsight of world history there is a lesson that mankind continues to miss.

Fanaticism is dangerous no matter what the form. It twists, warps and distorts judgment. This can be political fanaticism or religious fanaticism. I think one of the messages I get from the story of Christ, is that fanaticism gets in the way of the will of God. I think the story Ghandi and maybe even MLK relates the same message.

On October 30 in Providence Bono made some remarks very similar to these about fanaticism.

There have been many things said in this thread that are troubling. But amongst the troubling things that have been said there have been truths even from people you may or may not have agreed with or the way they have said things.

Almost one year later, I am holding my son in my hands, he is still not sleeping. Before September 11, I was bothered by his not sleeping. Now I am thankful that I am here to experience it and I mourn the fact that so many will never meet their new born child or hold their children again be they from Afghanistan or America.

Peace to you all. Sharky God Bless.

 

[Anthony]

Life is a gift, and when it perishes, it should be mourned. It is not something that belongs on the scales of my suffering is greater than your suffering, or the way I died is worse than the way you died.

Thank you, Dreadsox.

I don't know how to respond to that in any proper way... but I don't need to. You said it perfectly and truthfully.

I'm sorry for your loss. God Bless.

Ant.

 

[RavenStar]

I'd rather celebrate life than mourn death. My friends uncle was in the towers and we've decided to throw a party tomorrow. We are celebrating his life. If I died tomorrow, I would want people to throw a party and be happy. Not go to a silent funeral and be sad. I believe that life is more important than death and that a life is what should be in focus, not the death. Just my 2 cents. Feel free to continue bashing me as usual.

 

[diamond]

Well Raven-
Thats a start.
You coulda just "shruged off" your Uncles existence
Have a great celebration in honor of his life
Sorry for your loss..

Peace-

DB9

 

[meegannie]

Dreadsox, that was an incredibly beautiful post. Well said.

 

[diamond]

Dreadsox, that was an incredibly beautiful post. Well said.

I agree too
Dreadsox..very eloquent/poignant

DB9

 

[Scarletwine]

I Guess I couldn't stay away from this thread. I have read every post, a couple of times. These are my and only my thoughts.

1. Rs was very caullous in the way she approached the subject.
2. Many people reacted to her post, i.e. not necessarily wrong.
3.Others started to stick up for RS due to her later post.
4. The true discussion of peoples feelings.
5. A sort of reconcilitaion betweent the troups.

Now- My thoughts.
!. I watched "Reports from Ground Zero" tonight. It was one of the most moving without being ratings driven I have seen. (I have not seen a recreation of anything in the US, only in England). It was only quietly the parent, brothers, and sons of the rescue teams that died. Of Course tomorrow is another day. And I may not agree with their programing.
2. Of Course we shall mourn. We lost almost 3000 civilians in an unpremeditated attack. (In USA that is reason for capital murder (that I don't believe in) But the truth.
3. Over 600 people were rescue personnel. The next time your building catches fire, hope you have someone so dedicated as the heroes on September 11, 2002.
4.Have you ever heard of a book from the front lines in WWII and Korea? That is what the show was like. It wasn't a pity-Party for Americans (p.s. this is what we call ourselves not USA), It was "letters front the Front" or Postcards From the Front"
5. Finally I want to propose my wishes (and I'm egotistical to think they matter), seriously, My wish for the anniversary
is LOVE< PEACE & PROSPEITY FOR ALL

 

[kingofsorrow]

look i really don't how to put what i'm thinking and feeling into words. but your wrong RAVENSTAR.
so why don't i come to the funeral of someone you love and downplay your grief?

 

[famous rungi]

At best, she phrased it wrong. At worst, she may have been too analytical about it, without considering the human side of it all.

Well said.

This isn't a funeral, needless to say, its a thread asking some questions.

I don't think I am wrong in saying that lots of Americans on this thread are in a 'funeral' state of mind now.

I don't think there will be an apology (I think she would have done so already, if she had felt the need to). If this thread upsets you, please don't read it. Otherwise, let the discussion go on.

I'm not upset that I can't bear to read this thread. I didn't lose anyone dear to me in the incident. I can't even begin to imagine what those affected must feel, especially those reading this thread. Surely Ravenstar must have realized how upset she would have made them with her initial post. Even if the first post was a boo-boo, she didn't apologize for taking their emotions for a ride, so to speak. I think apologizing, at least for that, would be simple basic courtesy and consideration for your fellow man. I don't care how tedious FYM would be if everyone apologized for their posts. This isn't the same. Alas, harping on this more would further incline her not to apologize. I think lots of Americans would agree with my previous post.

(I'd suggest Ravenstar to stop thinking the whole world is against her, as is the natural thing for adolescents to do. The more she thinks that, the more hurt she may incur to very real people, if she doesn't learn this soon.)

I think I'm done here.

foray

 

[Not George Lucas]

 

[Fritzy]

i usually don't post in this forum but after reading this thread i feel compelled to.

ravenstar, you are entitled to your opinion. as a matter of fact, i can appreciate the point you were trying to make (or the point that other people say you were trying to make, since you couldn't articulate it yourself). however, your complete lack of tact and your disregard for other people's feelings is beyond distasteful, it's utterly appalling. i won't say more because i will just be repeating what other people have already said.

yes, today is a day of mouring here (here being NY) however i am going to take the opportunity to make sure i do something positive today and make sure that the people i care about know how i feel. too many people do not get that chance.


and, NotGeorgeLucas, i usually think your posts are funny, but, sorry, i don't get this one.

 

[czardog1]

Today!

It is now 10:18 on 9/11/02 and I found this thread about thirty minutes ago.

I had no intentions of reliving the horror of a year ago. I really thought that I had put it in the past. I did not even turn on the radio this morning because I did not want to listen to all the serevices and memorials going on.

Like everyone I was stunned and shocked by what I saw a year ago today. I found myself in a daze for a while, but I got on with life and was somewhat upset with all the bandwagon patriots who had flags flying all over thier cars, and the profiters on the side of the road selling Patriotism from a trunk. There was something wrong about it, but thier was also something very American about it.

Then I walked into the bank at 9 am this morning and was filling out a deposit slip and had to write the date. I looked what I had written and my knees went week: (9/11/02). I remeberd the confusion of that morning. I remeberd watching the unbelievable happen in front of my eyes as the first tower came down. I remember thinking that as a country we would never be the same. I remember knowing that this would consume us for a long while to come, and I watched on. I watched a country panic for a short period of time that morning, and for the first time many Americans felt vunerable and it scared the hell out of everyone.

It was the worst of days, and it was much more than any one person can express, and is damn sure more than you are willing to give it credit for Raven Star. It is a marker in our History and it is a day you will remember untill someone is throwing a party for your death.

 

[joyfulgirl]

I knew someone from another forum (the Tori Amos forum) who was a flight attendant on UA #175. This is how 9/11 touched me personally. Although I had never met her, it was just like if it had been a member of this forum. Yet I am not offended by RavenStar's comments and need no apology from her because I sensed from her first post that she was referring to the media hype around it. Am I allowed to even say '9/11 media hype' without everyone getting upset and thinking I'm insensitive? I wept on 9/11 and the days that followed along with everyone else. I am moved by the personal stories of everyone touched directly (and indirectly) by it. I wept when I saw Alicia Titus' name scroll by during "Walk On" at the U2 show and also when I heard that Tori Amos was dedicating songs to her during her shows (that my two favorite artists were honoring this person was very moving). I can be both moved and saddened by the events and the enormous loss of life AND still see that there is media hype. Yes, let's remember the day. Let's even make it a national holiday, as some have suggested. And perhaps let's be extra sensitive to others around this time. I understand why many of you were upset by RavenStar's comments, but I personally was not.

originally posted by RavenStar
I'd rather celebrate life than mourn death. My friends uncle was in the towers and we've decided to throw a party tomorrow. We are celebrating his life. If I died tomorrow, I would want people to throw a party and be happy. Not go to a silent funeral and be sad. I believe that life is more important than death and that a life is what should be in focus, not the death. Just my 2 cents. Feel free to continue bashing me as usual.

What did affect me very directly more deeply than 9/11 was the weeks that followed when my best friend of 25 years died suddenly, just 30 days after he was diagnosed with cancer. It was his wish that we have a party and not a funeral or a memorial service. So we honored his request and we danced and cried and partied like there was no tomorrow. It was absolutely fantastic. And then we mourned quietly in the months that followed. But for us there was great healing power in celebrating his life. But the celebration did not push the 'be happy' button that eliminated the pain. It was just one step in a long process.

Peace to everyone.

 

[nbcrusader]

Ravenstar makes one good point. Innocent people die each day - tragedies that barely register in our media.

9/11, however, goes well beyond loss of life. It is our collective witnessing of evil. It is the somber realization that people who don't know you, hate you for your beliefs, your culture, your freedoms. It is a sobering reminder that peace and security must be paid for.

May God give you all His peace today.

 

[RavenStar]

I brought up the commercialised aspect of 9/11 in class today. I asked my class if thye remember the genocide in Rwanda. None of them had even heard of it. 800 000 people died in a course of 8 months and the world barely even blinked.

 

[ouizy]

damn did I miss all this today?

what the hell was I doing in the Lemonade Stand anyway...

 

[Sweet Tart]

this was a very difficult thread to read.

i was deeply saddened by the events that happened that day. i just sat in front of the tv in utter dismay at the images that were being brodcast. i just turned on the tv (surprisingly on CNN, considering i never watch it) without previous knowledge of what was occuring. i watched the first building burn as the second plane hit and i was mortified to say the least. and as the buildings one by one crumble to the ground i was heartbroken at the unecessary loss of the life that occurred in those 2 towers ,4 planes, and the pentagon.

who would have believed that a group of people would devise this unbelievable scenario and almost completely be able to bring it to reality. that's suppose to be the stuff of hollywood action movies not of REAL life.

that being said....this situation also sadens me with respect to the discrimination that has happened toward islamic people among others who are now subjected to racial profiling and hatred for a situation that was brought about by extremists. we should be joining together to help stop this from happening again instead of alienating people.

also what was mentioned before about the commericalization of this tragedy. i can't believe that people are trying to make a profit from this horrible act of terroism. i can understand maybe some items (i NY shirts, WTC rememberance stuff) if the money was going to do some good....ie helping out the families affect by 9/11 or building a memorial at the WTC site...but not for pure money making purposes...that's just sickening!

i have watched quite a bit of the 9/11 ceremonies today and a lot of the news coverage that is going back and replaying the events of that tragic day. i applaud the tv stations that are broadcasting these ceremonies were families, friends, and others are coming togther again to greive the lost of those dear people. but i do believe that they should leave to rest the disturbing images of that day. it hasn't been so bad today with the replays and they have been posting warnings saying that there is upseting images in upcoming segments and not to watch if it will upset you, but even yesterday they were showing extreme close ups of the plains hitting the buildings (one in particular yesterday was the most horrifying video of the 2nd plane hitting the tower i have seen to this date). they should only be showing us pictures of the survivors and the heros (such as the NYPD, NYFD, EMT's, and port authority workers that did an amazing job that day) instead of those images of the planes hitting the buildings, the towers collapsing, and the most upsetting one for me personally is the people, , jumping or falling to their deaths.

i have not been affected personally (ie i do not know anyone killed or any of the rescuers) and i am not an americian citizen, but i know that if my husband, brother, mother, father, sister, etc died that day that is the LAST thing i would want to see day in and day out on tv and in newspapers and magzines.

now that i said how i feel about the events that happened today, this day last year and everyday in between, i would like to give my condolences to everyone who lost someone on that tragic day and to thank from the bottom of my heart everyone who worked to save people from the WTC, pentagon, and also the plane that went down in pennsylvania and for the recovery efforts of those poor people who could not be saved.

God Bless