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Old 02-04-2007, 01:41 PM   #16
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thus underscoring the fundamental circularity of the political spectrum, but it's qutie a stretch when you're using Tucker Carlson as a cultural commentator and not appreciating the fact that his quotes are all part of a political strategy employed in 2004 where the subtex was, essentially, the terrorists want John Kerry to win.

but, utlimately, those who hate the self-expression and self-definition afforded to Westerners by a secular popular cutlure -- where women can have sex, where gays are people, where we are free to self-create and self-define -- are going to find a common ground with the Islamists. the Christianists and the Islamists do, indeed, share many of the same goals. one wonders how well Bin Laden's domestic/social rhetoric would go over in a GOP primary ...
The quotes are from Jan 06.

I could paste quotes from bin Laden and Howard Dean on Iraq and Bush and you couldn't tell me the difference. I'm sure you could do the same with bin Laden and Jerry Falwell or Pat Robertson. Is that what you mean by "the fundamental circularity?"

My point is we live in a world of instant global communication. What here is a non-binding Senate resolution against troop increases in Iraq ...becomes instant propaganda in the hands of others.
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Old 02-04-2007, 02:00 PM   #17
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It goes beyond left and right (economic term) and to issues of modernity versus faith, liberty versus authoritarianism an enlightened society versus primitivism. When push comes to shove it is the liberals who will defend reason and freedoms against all those threats; who will defend free speech against religion, sexual liberties and reason when for social conservatives those aren't so much principles as they are allowable in certain instances.
Have to disagree with you here.


Sorry but it's Super Bowl time, gotta go.
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Old 02-04-2007, 02:35 PM   #18
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They fear a secular state, they fear women in power, they deny science, they like to deny rights to their homosexuals and minorities, violence is always a valid response even when their faith says otherwise, and they have a love affair with the status quo(as long as they are the ones benefitting).

Who am I talking about?
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Old 02-04-2007, 02:56 PM   #19
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The Christians, Jesus rejected violence, Mohammed didn't.
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Old 02-04-2007, 03:45 PM   #20
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This sounds familiar. It's completely off base. Of course I'm a lefty, so I'm going to have that opinion.
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Old 02-04-2007, 06:22 PM   #21
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The quotes are from Jan 06.

I could paste quotes from bin Laden and Howard Dean on Iraq and Bush and you couldn't tell me the difference. I'm sure you could do the same with bin Laden and Jerry Falwell or Pat Robertson. Is that what you mean by "the fundamental circularity?"

My point is we live in a world of instant global communication. What here is a non-binding Senate resolution against troop increases in Iraq ...becomes instant propaganda in the hands of others.


it doesn't matter -- this was implied in the 2004 election, along with Cheney talking about how you're going to die in a terrorist attack if you vote for Kerry.

i challenge you to the cut-and-pasted quotes, because that would be interesting, and yes, that is what i mean about the fundamental circularity of the spectrum, but Fallwell and Robertson and D'Souza and Dobson are all much farther right than Dean is to the left.
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Old 02-04-2007, 06:23 PM   #22
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Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar
They fear a secular state, they fear women in power, they deny science, they like to deny rights to their homosexuals and minorities, violence is always a valid response even when their faith says otherwise, and they have a love affair with the status quo(as long as they are the ones benefitting).

Who am I talking about?


the increasingly theocratic government in Iraq? the religious militias that govern may provinces and towns in Iraq who encourage honor killings when it comes to gays?
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Old 02-04-2007, 06:54 PM   #23
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Very sly; but what would you do about it? Bush promotes democracy but simply fails to emphasise guaranteed liberties - which are impossible in countries where Islam is placed in the constitutions as the highest law of the land - if your going to attack him for this whats your alternative?
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Old 02-04-2007, 10:08 PM   #24
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Re: 9/11 is the fault of the Liberals

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Originally posted by Dreadsox


http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/16840067/site/newsweek/

There is much more to the article.
I kind of doubt it.
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Old 02-04-2007, 10:16 PM   #25
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Very sly; but what would you do about it? Bush promotes democracy but simply fails to emphasise guaranteed liberties - which are impossible in countries where Islam is placed in the constitutions as the highest law of the land - if your going to attack him for this whats your alternative?
This is one of the biggest problems with the Iraq war - you can install a government, ink people's fingers and tell them they live in a democracy, and in extremely conservative, outdated definitions of democracy they do: People now elect their leaders. But they don't live in a liberal democracy (and I don't mean politically liberal, Indy and others, hear me out), that is, a democracy where people have civil rights, civic participation is encouraged, where there are rights like those enshrined in our bill of rights. Well, in Iraq, there's martial law, chaos, and people are intentionally picking off key leaders in civil society to prevent the democracy from taking route.
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Old 02-04-2007, 10:32 PM   #26
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Very sly; but what would you do about it? Bush promotes democracy but simply fails to emphasise guaranteed liberties - which are impossible in countries where Islam is placed in the constitutions as the highest law of the land - if your going to attack him for this whats your alternative?


Varitek has hit it on the head -- voting and a parliment are merely the hollow shell of a democracy. there might have been a democratic election in Iraq, but it is not a democratic society, and the scary thing is that when certain societies with anti-liberal values hold elections, the people elected are given a patina of legitimacy in the eyes of the democratic world that a despot would never have been given -- hence, the legitimization of Hamas and Hezbollah. democratic values cannot function without a basic level of security, and there isn't any in Iraq.

what is to be done? there's no single solution, but one does know that invasion, the toppling of a government, and then foreign occupation are precisely the wrong things to do.
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Old 02-06-2007, 09:50 AM   #27
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Funny, how the right are cool with saying the left are allied with Bin Laden & the terrorists, but get all pissy when one of their own goes on one of his racist/sexist/homophobic tirades and gets lumped in with the Nazis.
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Old 02-07-2007, 07:45 AM   #28
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lol

another chapter on America ridiculing itself, please!

I wonder how much Dinesh D Souza got paid and by who.. I wonder who she works for.
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Old 02-07-2007, 07:48 AM   #29
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Funny, how the right are cool with saying the left are allied with Bin Laden & the terrorists, but get all pissy when one of their own goes on one of his racist/sexist/homophobic tirades and gets lumped in with the Nazis.
still funnier when you consider that the White House has better relations to the BinLadens and the rest of the oil-shitting world than all the Moores and Sheehans and Sharon Stones and Hilarys combined.
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Old 02-07-2007, 08:07 AM   #30
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I wonder how much Dinesh D Souza got paid and by who.. I wonder who she works for.


Dinesh is a he.
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