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Old 03-16-2007, 09:33 PM   #76
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Originally posted by Liesje

But, like BVS said before (I think), the media gives us what we want.
No, the media gives us what they think we want. Commercials -- and advertising in general, come to think of it -- are built around the notion of creating the demand, then meeting it. Ditto for the media (which, we mustn't forget, is driven by advertising).
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Old 03-16-2007, 09:53 PM   #77
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Perhaps, these sixth grade girls got that cervical cancer vaccine.

And they thought that gave them a green light to got for it.
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Old 03-17-2007, 09:56 AM   #78
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It's not about being strict (but a certain amount of discipline is required) because kids will rebel if parents are overly strict. It's about teaching kids respect for themselves, for authority, and for certain environments such as school. My parents never told me specifically "dont have sex and don't have sex in a classroom" , but it was clearly understood by me that I was to respect certain situations and behave accordingly. I feel so old and like I'm in a bizarro world when I see some kids and the way they behave in public. They have no respect for others, and it's clear to me that they haven't been brought up to. When I encounter a kid who holds doors and is polite and considerate of others, frankly I'm shocked. Not all of course-there are some great parents who do a phenomenal job. And I understand what it's like for kids (especially teens) and that kids will act out sometimes for a myriad of reasons that have nothing to do with parents. I don't want to bash parents, it's the toughest job in the world.

But some parents are overindulging and spoiling kids materially and in other ways, and using that as some sort of substitute for what they should really be doing. They want their kids to like them so much that they go overboard and take it to extremes. I've seen this in action numerous times.

Obviously this is an isolated incident, I'm quite sure that there are not 12 year olds all over the country having sex in their classrooms. But the general questions surrounding why something like this happened are worth discussing, O'Reilly hysteria aside.
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Old 03-17-2007, 01:32 PM   #79
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Originally posted by MrsSpringsteen
It's not about being strict (but a certain amount of discipline is required) because kids will rebel if parents are overly strict. It's about teaching kids respect for themselves, for authority, and for certain environments such as school. My parents never told me specifically "dont have sex and don't have sex in a classroom" , but it was clearly understood by me that I was to respect certain situations and behave accordingly. I feel so old and like I'm in a bizarro world when I see some kids and the way they behave in public. They have no respect for others, and it's clear to me that they haven't been brought up to. When I encounter a kid who holds doors and is polite and considerate of others, frankly I'm shocked. Not all of course-there are some great parents who do a phenomenal job. And I understand what it's like for kids (especially teens) and that kids will act out sometimes for a myriad of reasons that have nothing to do with parents. I don't want to bash parents, it's the toughest job in the world.

But some parents are overindulging and spoiling kids materially and in other ways, and using that as some sort of substitute for what they should really be doing. They want their kids to like them so much that they go overboard and take it to extremes. I've seen this in action numerous times.

Obviously this is an isolated incident, I'm quite sure that there are not 12 year olds all over the country having sex in their classrooms. But the general questions surrounding why something like this happened are worth discussing, O'Reilly hysteria aside.
I think that you'd be surprised to find how many middle schoolers are engaging in sexual acts while in school. Last year, my sister was in eighth grade and told me about a guy and a girl who went into the bathroom and the girl gave him a blowjob. I know of several people in my grade who have done/do cocaine in the bathrooms as well. Of course, now one of those girls is pregnant...

Really though, most of these kids that I'm thinking of haven't had a good upbringing and haven't had values instilled by their parents. I'm lucky enough to have had values taught to me by my parents. This story is sad more than anything else.
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Old 03-17-2007, 01:40 PM   #80
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No, the media gives us what they think we want. Commercials -- and advertising in general, come to think of it -- are built around the notion of creating the demand, then meeting it. Ditto for the media (which, we mustn't forget, is driven by advertising).
Yes there is some manipulation or creating a demand, but there's only so much they can do. They have test markets and spend tons of money on research to figure out what we want.

I think you give them far too much credit to think they can manipulate us on their will. It's not as if they can make us wake up tomorrow and think being obese and unhealthy is sexy.
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Old 03-17-2007, 01:46 PM   #81
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funny that people always gripe about Indianapolis Public Schools, but look what happens in the township schools! IPS gets teachers arrested for sexual harassment of students instead...

no, in all seriousness, this is fucked up. the fact that it happened in a school is sad, but children having sex, scary as it is, really isn't anything new. there will always be those who feel the need to "experiment" at a younger age.
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Old 03-18-2007, 03:44 PM   #82
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[i]

Apparently the teacher was going back and forth between two classrooms, and they had a "lookout".

[/B]
A lookout? You mean there was a kid standing by the door saying "ok... I think she's gone. Quick, take your pants off and start having sex now!!!"?

Hahahaha.
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Old 03-18-2007, 05:45 PM   #83
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What bothers me is the plain fact that there are insufficient teachers about to make this kind of thing more difficult. Not that two 12 year olds having sex isn't also bothersome, but geez, we used to have to /work/ at it when I was in school.
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Old 03-18-2007, 07:42 PM   #84
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Quote:
Originally posted by MrsSpringsteen
It's not about being strict (but a certain amount of discipline is required) because kids will rebel if parents are overly strict. It's about teaching kids respect for themselves, for authority, and for certain environments such as school. My parents never told me specifically "dont have sex and don't have sex in a classroom" , but it was clearly understood by me that I was to respect certain situations and behave accordingly. I feel so old and like I'm in a bizarro world when I see some kids and the way they behave in public. They have no respect for others, and it's clear to me that they haven't been brought up to. When I encounter a kid who holds doors and is polite and considerate of others, frankly I'm shocked. Not all of course-there are some great parents who do a phenomenal job. And I understand what it's like for kids (especially teens) and that kids will act out sometimes for a myriad of reasons that have nothing to do with parents. I don't want to bash parents, it's the toughest job in the world.

But some parents are overindulging and spoiling kids materially and in other ways, and using that as some sort of substitute for what they should really be doing. They want their kids to like them so much that they go overboard and take it to extremes. I've seen this in action numerous times.

Obviously this is an isolated incident, I'm quite sure that there are not 12 year olds all over the country having sex in their classrooms. But the general questions surrounding why something like this happened are worth discussing, O'Reilly hysteria aside.
Well put.
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Old 03-18-2007, 09:13 PM   #85
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There were certainly some kids who were sexually active at 12 where I went to school. Only a few, but they were certainly there. Some of them had what you might call 'shitty parents', and some of them definitely didn't. I agree with nathan that 'shitty parents,' like 'The Media,' is too often lazily slung around as a catchall explanation for anything and everything disturbing some kids do, and honestly the way some people (*not aimed at anyone in here*) reflexively fall back on that one, I sometimes wonder if they're being willfully amnesiac about their own former schoolmates or what. Certainly I'd be hard-pressed to think of any large family I've known, from any social background, that did not have at least one kid who got into major, hardcore trouble at some point, sexual or otherwise, despite having well-adjusted, popular, high-achieving siblings and wonderful, highly committed parents. It just happens.

Anyhow, for me at least the real 'shocker' here is that this happened in class--that much I definitely can't imagine anyone I knew having done, and I'm pretty certain that any of the kids I remember being sexually active at that age would've found the whole concept weird and gross. I have to imagine this was more or less some type of showing-off, watch-me-flout-the-teacher-and-everyone-else-too kind of thing. Which as far as it goes isn't a surprising impulse coming from kids that age, but it can cross the line into self-debasing behavior and it seems to me this is a glaringly clear-cut example of that; what's disturbing is that that recognition failed to assert itself. Not even the most minimal level of regard for preserving your own dignity before your peers.

I really don't know what to make of that (if I'm generally perceiving it correctly); I guess I'd want to leave it to a children's therapist to sort that one out. Maybe it's old-fashioned on my part, but I have to imagine any 12-year-old, male or female, who would do that most likely needs some professionally guided help. As far as it goes, it sounds like a good idea that the school is planning to make what's going on in the workspaces more visible to the teachers. I'm skeptical that a lack of 'sex ed' classes is really a salient factor in this particular case, but if this jump-starts some intensive public dialogue about it, so much the better.

I've never heard of an 'Industrial Arts' class for 6th graders--is that common?
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Old 03-18-2007, 10:59 PM   #86
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Originally posted by yolland
I really don't know what to make of that (if I'm generally perceiving it correctly); I guess I'd want to leave it to a children's therapist to sort that one out. Maybe it's old-fashioned on my part, but I have to imagine any 12-year-old, male or female, who would do that most likely needs some professionally guided help.


i think this is quite right.

i don't think "the media" or bad parenting has turned these 12 year olds into hormonally charged, dripping sex machines who lack the impulse control to wait until after school in the basement. there's something else going on here, and we can probably find elements of blame in a sexualized media, as well as parents who have obviously not taught much in the way of self-respect, but having sex IN CLASS seems a really warped act of defiance that requires professional attention. this is not about kids who don't have Jesus in their lives telling them to be abstemious; indeed, i doubt these were the children of atheists who therefore feel unencumbered by whatever external morality O'Reilly and anyone else who wants to work themselves into a frenzy over believes is missing from the school system.

get these kids to a shrink.
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Old 03-19-2007, 09:19 AM   #87
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I don't think anyone mentioned Jesus or abstinence (but yes I do believe 12 year olds should be abstaining from sex) or atheism in this thread, not that I can recall. Maybe I'm wrong, I'd have to go back and read it again. Honestly I don't think O'Reilly did either.
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Old 03-19-2007, 09:47 AM   #88
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The main point about this whole issue for me is that the kids had sex IN THE classroom. That they had sex at the age of 12 doesn't really concern me as much as I thought it would.

Sex Ed happens too late (14-15 in my school) and is too half-arsed nowdays. If you start getting to the nitty-gritty before kids reach double figures, there might not exist this irresponsible curiousity to just go at it.

It doesn't help when you've got the media, religious groups and just society in general treating sex as taboo, yet still hammering the point home that it's "naughty" but "nice".

The decision to actually have sex might be a well-thought out process between the two kids involved, if they have had good sex ed.

If two mature, responsible and passionate youngsters are at that stage in a relationship (be it a long-term or friends-with-benefits) where they are ready to have sex, I don't think I should be able to intervene or object to their decision.

Indeed, adults are just as capable as kids of having unsafe, meaningless, and irresponsible sex. Indeed, with adults, it happens all the time.


Just my two cents...
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Old 03-19-2007, 09:56 AM   #89
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Originally posted by MrsSpringsteen
I don't think anyone mentioned Jesus or abstinence (but yes I do believe 12 year olds should be abstaining from sex) or atheism in this thread, not that I can recall. Maybe I'm wrong, I'd have to go back and read it again. Honestly I don't think O'Reilly did either.


he talked about "secular progressives."
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Old 03-19-2007, 10:07 AM   #90
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he talked about "secular progressives."
Yes you're right, he did. It's way too early in a Monday morning But he also mentioned what kind of parents those kids must have. And I do have to wonder about that. Like I said, I understand that kids can still act out in certain ways in spite of even great parenting.

No way in my opinion can 12 year olds have the emotional and psychological capacity to make mature decisions about having sex. Yes adults have unsafe and meaningless sex, but most adults are far better equipped emotionally than any 12 year old could ever be. A 12 year old has not progressed to the point of being ready for the all the ramifications of sex and sexual relationships, not matter how we try to put adult characteristics on younger and younger kids.
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