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Old 11-14-2004, 07:00 PM   #31
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can i just say one thing? the only idiots in america are those who either didn't vote (those who were eligible at least) or made an uninformed decision. anyone who's 18+ and hasn't been convicted of a felony (or a felon who's had their rights restored) has their civic duty to get out there and learn about their candidates and decide who they want to run their government. i refer not only to the president, but even more local offices like mayor, governor, etc.

the only wrong voter is an uniformed voter
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Old 11-14-2004, 07:01 PM   #32
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Originally posted by Boston01


I don't think that is at the heart of a lot of the moral vote at all. I have a family and what I don't want is the embracing of Eminem, Howard Stern or most in Hollywood as my childrens icons. Most of these people have little or no education and no value system at all. I'm not uptight, not trying to stop them from doing what they're doing. I even find them entertaining more times than not, but they are certainly not what I want my children to aspire to. Unfortunately, that seems to be a measure of success these days.

Regarding, gay marriage... I think many people are upset with the terminalogy more than the granting of equal rights. The term "marriage" has been represented in most western civilization as the union of a man and woman for thousands of years. The foundation is religious and many people get upset with changing the meaning of the word itself. The polls supporting civil unions are consistently high in favor.

Regarding "anti-choice"...I know a lot of men who would really not consider it a choice on their part if a child, partially theirs, were aborted and they could do nothing about it.
your first paragraph is very intersting, and as someone who has taught in early elementary schools, i am aware of the concern many parents have about the effect of mass media upon their children. (on a side note, i'm the eldest, and turned my brother and sister into U2 freaks ... i told my parents the best thing i ever did for them as parents was to get my siblings to worship Bono and not Eminem). there is toxic stuff that comes out of hollywood, but at the same time, those worshippers of the free market don't seem to get as upset when the people on madison avenue try to market their cars, clothes, liquor, or whatever, with as much sex as you'll find anywhere on MTV. seems like there's a double standard here: hollywood, bad; madison avenue, fine if it ships product!

however, how does voting for Bush mean a vote for a cleaner media? all i can see is an FCC that freaks out over Janet Jackson's nipple-pull-tab

i can understand how gay marriage -- the M word in particular -- makes some people uncomfortable. it is new, and sadly the first image many people think of is a man in a wedding dress (while most drag queens are gay, most gay men are not drag queens!) but what really happened in the 2004 election was a vote not just on marriage but on the phrase "and all the legal incidents thereof." that's a *big* deal, and an assault on homosexuality itself, not gay marriage. when you use something new like "marriage" but wrap trick legal language around it in order to systematically destroy contractual relationships between loving couples simply because they are of the same gender, that is bigotry. i'm sure many who voted against gay marriage weren't even congnisant of that phrase, but those who wrote the law knew exactly what they were doing.

i'm not even going to touch the abortion thing except to say that i think "pro-life" is a misnomer. you're either pro-choice or anti-choice. or maybe you're pro-birth, but are you pro-life enough to make sure that child is wanted, loved, fed, and educated?
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Old 11-14-2004, 07:21 PM   #33
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But with this whole moral voting thing for Bush, it makes it sound like because I voted for Kerry, I have no morals. Same with this whole Republican move to label me as unAmerican because I didn't support Bush. The fact remains that I voted for Kerry because I am partriotic and moral. Under Bush, abortions increased, 4 million more Americans fell below the poverty line, millions lost their health insurance. As a Christian, how could I support that?

Boston, I understand your contempt for people like Eminem and Howard Stern, but how does voting for Bush change them? Kerry never said he supported them. Tipper Gore was the one that pushed for parental warning stickers on Eminen's albums so parents know what not to buy. I just don't understand that argument but you're not the first one to use it.

People somehow found a way to connect two things that had no connection and Bush perpetuated those beliefs. Rather than educating themselves, 46% of Americans believed the 9/11 terrorists were from Iraq. That alone should tell you people didn't educate themselves about what was going on.

You have to remember the people in this forum are alot smarter than the average American.
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Old 11-14-2004, 07:54 PM   #34
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Originally posted by sharky
But with this whole moral voting thing for Bush, it makes it sound like because I voted for Kerry, I have no morals.
Really??

This is an often used discussion tactic which is not making sense.

If the question is "what influenced your vote" and you respond
moral values" that only suggests that between two candidates, one was viewed as better protecting the moral values of the voter in question.

It has nothing to do with complete polarization and imputation of views and beliefs.
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Old 11-14-2004, 08:09 PM   #35
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But it does. If you look at exit polls, the number one issue for people that voted for Bush was moral values. That's why he won. 77% of Evangelicals voted for Bush and most of them said it was because of his moral values. If you look at the exit polls, granted it's not set in stone, but it illustrates that most of the people who used "moral values" as a reason to vote ended up voting for Bush.
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Old 11-14-2004, 08:28 PM   #36
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Quote:
Originally posted by nbcrusader


Really??

This is an often used discussion tactic which is not making sense.

If the question is "what influenced your vote" and you respond
moral values" that only suggests that between two candidates, one was viewed as better protecting the moral values of the voter in question.

It has nothing to do with complete polarization and imputation of views and beliefs.

actually, i disagree quite strongly. what the republicans have brilliantly done is to co-opt traditional notions of american-ness, both ideas, ideology, and symbology, and turn them into republican trademarks. this is the heart and soul of the republican political strategy machine, and it has done it's job exceedingly well.
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Old 11-15-2004, 05:43 AM   #37
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THE GOP may use this to energize a portion of its voter base, but that does not mean that the DNC is lacking in moral values.

Or has the DNC abdicated the concept of moral values?
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Old 11-15-2004, 06:11 AM   #38
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Quote:
Originally posted by sharky
But it does. If you look at exit polls, the number one issue for people that voted for Bush was moral values. That's why he won. 77% of Evangelicals voted for Bush and most of them said it was because of his moral values. If you look at the exit polls, granted it's not set in stone, but it illustrates that most of the people who used "moral values" as a reason to vote ended up voting for Bush.
You've got to love the US. Only there can a
cocaine sniffing, drunk-driving, draft dodging, alcoholic be elected on a moral platform. It's a crazy place.
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Old 11-15-2004, 06:40 AM   #39
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Quote:
Originally posted by nbcrusader
THE GOP may use this to energize a portion of its voter base, but that does not mean that the DNC is lacking in moral values.

Or has the DNC abdicated the concept of moral values?

this is exactly what the RNC would want you to think. there's also the simple fact that, for many people, treating homosexuals as people and equal citizens is equated with lacking moral values -- though this seems to me preicsely the kind of moral values i'd look for in a president. it's less that the DNC doesn't have any, and the fact that politics isn't about absolutes but about *comparisons*. and the RNC scores big points with their base when they use fear and hate of differences like sexual orientation to win this side-by-side comparison with the DNC.
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Old 11-15-2004, 07:28 AM   #40
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Quote:
Originally posted by sharky
But it does. If you look at exit polls, the number one issue for people that voted for Bush was moral values. That's why he won. 77% of Evangelicals voted for Bush and most of them said it was because of his moral values. If you look at the exit polls, granted it's not set in stone, but it illustrates that most of the people who used "moral values" as a reason to vote ended up voting for Bush.
I actually feel like I voted for Kerry for moral reasons. It's true that most of my fellow practicing Catholics voted for Bush in large part because of the abortion and gay marriage issues. What we Catholics were expected to do was to look at both candidates and evaluate them on their contributions to the "culture of life". I thought Kerry's position on heath care made him a worthy supporter of a "culture of life", and so did many other Catholics who formed Catholics For Kerry. I'd only be insulted if someone told me to my face that I'd voted for an immoral monster. This hasn't happened. If it does I'll put up a suitable stink about the matter.
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Old 11-15-2004, 07:33 AM   #41
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good points verte

Maybe there are the "moral values" that certain elements of the GOP want to fixate on, then others that perhaps they want to avoid discussing.
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Old 11-15-2004, 07:51 AM   #42
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Quote:
Originally posted by verte76


I actually feel like I voted for Kerry for moral reasons. I'd only be insulted if someone told me to my face that I'd voted for an immoral monster. This hasn't happened. If it does I'll put up a suitable stink about the matter.
Voting for Kerry doesn't make you an immoral monster. To me, it means that you see the world much differently than those who voted for Bush. Kerry is not an immoral monster, but his views have reason for questioning.
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Old 11-15-2004, 07:53 AM   #43
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good points verte

Maybe there are the "moral values" that certain elements of the GOP want to fixate on, then others that perhaps they want to avoid discussing.
Yes. There are other moral value systems. I do not want to point fingers at my Republican friends and claim that they're somehow morally deficient. I certainly do not believe this. But it's also not fair to claim that we liberals didn't vote with any moral intentions.
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Old 11-15-2004, 08:13 AM   #44
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Quote:
Originally posted by MrsSpringsteen
good points verte

Maybe there are the "moral values" that certain elements of the GOP want to fixate on, then others that perhaps they want to avoid discussing.
There are certainly "moral issues" that fall to one side or the other. The DNC and GOP each fixate on specific elements.
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Old 11-15-2004, 08:17 AM   #45
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Quote:
Originally posted by Macfistowannabe
Voting for Kerry doesn't make you an immoral monster. To me, it means that you see the world much differently than those who voted for Bush. Kerry is not an immoral monster, but his views have reason for questioning.
I absolutely do look at the world in a different way than those who voted for Bush. I understand that people had differences with Kerry on the moral values, but plenty of us who voted for Kerry definitely think we did the right thing. I still do, in fact. I do not regret my vote.
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