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Old 10-15-2004, 10:34 AM   #106
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Originally posted by whenhiphopdrovethebigcars
I would also like your personal opinion. Do you think its right, or wrong?
I look at the situation as follows:

Generally, consensus is better than unilateral action. However, I would not want a leader who would sacrifice our sovereign best interests for the sake of gaining consensus.

Think of it like negotiating a contract. I want the absolute best possible deal for my client. There are terms, however, that can be so one-sided in my favor, that I can hurt the other side in a way that hurts me. Thus, I need to achieve “consensus” to ensure that my terms respect the needs of the other side. But I am reluctant to give too much, as it only means that the other side is benefiting at my expense.

But to your big picture questions:

Should we take over (dominate) the world? No.

Must the world adopt all our values and beliefs? No.

Are American values best? This is hard to answer. If we recognized better values elsewhere, wouldn’t we adopt them for ourselves?
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Old 10-15-2004, 10:40 AM   #107
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How else would you describe a group of people who dismiss everything outside their tiny known world.
Why would you assume that they have dismissed "everything outside their world"? Perhaps people think through these things and come to a different conclusion.
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Old 10-15-2004, 11:20 AM   #108
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Originally posted by nbcrusader

Are American values best? This is hard to answer. If we recognized better values elsewhere, wouldn’t we adopt them for ourselves?
That´s the problem with nationalism. In general, nationalism forbids you to recognize that other values are better than the ones of your country. After all, it´s your nation´s values, not another nation´s values.

I also don´t think you´d adopt them so easily. Just two examples, I could make more of them.. look at the percentange of Americans who die of heart attack due to fat, unhealthy food. It´s very clear that U.S. citizens would be better off with a change in consumer habits. It´s also clear that most of the U.S. citizens (except of a tiny group of energy moguls), and all the world, would be better off if the U.S. signed the Kyoto Protocol. Where´s the best interest of the nation? Is it an American value to pollute as much as possible? An American value to waste food?

Sorry, I think you wouldn´t adopt better values that you can recognize elsewhere. You wouldn´t think it to be "American".

By the way, your consensus policy sounds quite clear - but that´s exactly what I said: If you "want the absolute best possible deal for my client", you have to decide who the client is: America or the "free world"?

If you say you just "achieve “consensus” to ensure that my terms respect the needs of the other side. But I am reluctant to give too much, as it only means that the other side is benefiting at my expense." then you are not acting in the "free worlds" best interest, but in your own best interest.

Get it? You have to decide for one of the two positions - decide for one client. Assuming that what America needs is exactly what the world needs, is intellectual harakiri.
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Old 10-15-2004, 11:32 AM   #109
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Originally posted by whenhiphopdrovethebigcars
That´s the problem with nationalism. In general, nationalism forbids you to recognize that other values are better than the ones of your country. After all, it´s your nation´s values, not another nation´s values.
This, of course, depends on the willingness of any individual to learn, understand and be influenced by other values. In a pure sense, nationalism prevents you from doing so.

Quote:
Originally posted by whenhiphopdrovethebigcars
I also don´t think you´d adopt them so easily. Just two examples, I could make more of them.. look at the percentange of Americans who die of heart attack due to fat, unhealthy food. It´s very clear that U.S. citizens would be better off with a change in consumer habits. It´s also clear that most of the U.S. citizens (except of a tiny group of energy moguls), and all the world, would be better off if the U.S. signed the Kyoto Protocol. Where´s the best interest of the nation? Is it an American value to pollute as much as possible? An American value to waste food?
Good examples. Regarding the first, I believe our national values have been cheapened by consumerism. Your example of food is right on. This weekend, our church introduced this year's mission program for children. Children will be specifically helping families who live in the garbage dumps of Cairo. One thing that really caught the children's attention is that the food these people people comes from the garbage. And what they don't eat goes to their animals. Four days later, I am in Las Vegas watching the gross excesses of your typical casino buffet. We are a consumer nation.

Kyoto we can differ on.

Quote:
Originally posted by whenhiphopdrovethebigcars
By the way, your consensus policy sounds quite clear - but that´s exactly what I said: If you "want the absolute best possible deal for my client", you have to decide who the client is: America or the "free world"?
In the context of voting for a President, the client I want represented is America.
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Old 10-15-2004, 11:40 AM   #110
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nbcrusader

Here a little story that could help you to see how urgent the Kyoto-protocol is.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/3686600.stm
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Old 10-15-2004, 11:50 AM   #111
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Originally posted by nbcrusader


This, of course, depends on the willingness of any individual to learn, understand and be influenced by other values. In a pure sense, nationalism prevents you from doing so.

Good examples. Regarding the first, I believe our national values have been cheapened by consumerism. Your example of food is right on. This weekend, our church introduced this year's mission program for children. Children will be specifically helping families who live in the garbage dumps of Cairo. One thing that really caught the children's attention is that the food these people people comes from the garbage. And what they don't eat goes to their animals. Four days later, I am in Las Vegas watching the gross excesses of your typical casino buffet. We are a consumer nation.

Kyoto we can differ on.

In the context of voting for a President, the client I want represented is America.
Nationalism: agreed.

Food: good project in your church

...I can assure you it is ashaming and disgusting to see people eating out of trash cans. I witnessed that on the market of Granada, and to see this with my own eyes was a shock. I even offered to buy the persons some fresh food, but because I am not fluent in Spanish, they thought I wanted to forbid them eating out of trashcans.

If you travel to some of the countries we´re talking about, and if you care to see poverty with your own eyes (which means not staying in a resort), it will change your mindset. I am not able to go to a Vegas buffet without thinking "What an incedible waste". I can enjoy good food, but wasting makes me sick.

This is why I would wish Americans would travel more. Travel more real, to see what a poor country is about. Many would enjoy their holidays even more. It is a totally different world unveiling.

If you say that you want America to be represented, you agree that the U.S. President CAN´T POSSIBLY BE the "leader of the free world". That´s ok by me, fine, you are the first conservative person who I meet who´s able to admit that there can be only one client your best interest goes to. In fact, the U.S. President is the leader of the United States. Not the leader of the "free world".
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Old 10-15-2004, 12:05 PM   #112
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Originally posted by nbcrusader


Why would you assume that they have dismissed "everything outside their world"? Perhaps people think through these things and come to a different conclusion.
I know many who fall in the category you describe and I'm not just speaking about the current situation. They have never touched foot on foreign land, they know nothing about other cultures, they can't even recall what was in their history books correctly yet they believe anything the US does is what the world needs and that's that.

I'm not saying we have to answer to or take into consideration, but it's not a good sign when the rest of the world would vote for the other guy. He's the president of the US, but we're all living on the same planet and we want someone who can help us do that without making more enemies.
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Old 10-15-2004, 12:49 PM   #113
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PING: NBC and Hip Hop--

Ya'll are officially invited to join me in forming this nonprofit which it has always been a dream of mine to form. It's called Peace Travel, and it's purpose is global understanding thru person to person contact. With the windfall of funding that will no doubt arrive , what I want to try to do is fully fund trips to places for folks who would never otherwise have the chance to go. It opens minds and changes lives, I tell ya.



SD
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Old 10-15-2004, 01:45 PM   #114
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Sounds cool, SD. You got mail.
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Old 10-15-2004, 02:51 PM   #115
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Originally posted by Sherry Darling
PING: NBC and Hip Hop--

Ya'll are officially invited to join me in forming this nonprofit which it has always been a dream of mine to form. It's called Peace Travel, and it's purpose is global understanding thru person to person contact. With the windfall of funding that will no doubt arrive , what I want to try to do is fully fund trips to places for folks who would never otherwise have the chance to go. It opens minds and changes lives, I tell ya.



SD
If you are serious about forming a non-profit, I have done a number. PM me if you need help with the legal stuff.
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Old 10-17-2004, 04:36 AM   #116
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All this shit about who speaks well during a debate, or who has the better family values, or who looks better, it's all bullshit. Give me a feckin President that will live up to his expectations, who shows the country that he will represent us as a country to respect and fear. Bring our troops home and quit spending lives and trillions of dollars. Finish the war with dignity. And what the hell ever happened to Al Quaeda? <<Fight the real enemy!>>
Bush seems to be in a daze about that. Get the stocks up, get the employment up, protect medicare, and most of all, make me proud to be an American!
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Old 10-17-2004, 05:35 AM   #117
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Hiphop, this American has visited Europe several times. The foreign countries I've been to include Canada, England, Scotland, Ireland, Wales, France, Switzerland and Italy. Sorry, I never made it to Austria. I want to go to Istanbul, but I don't know if I'll ever make it there. I will have to be a bit lucky.
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Old 10-17-2004, 09:57 AM   #118
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Originally posted by nbcrusader


If you are serious about forming a non-profit, I have done a number. PM me if you need help with the legal stuff.


Wow, thanks NBC. I can't PM, since I'm not premium, but here is my email, or of course I'm happy to email you as well. This is still in the thinking stages but cduckwo1@gmu.edu

Peace,
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Old 10-18-2004, 08:13 AM   #119
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Email on its way.
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Old 10-19-2004, 03:57 PM   #120
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Schwarzenegger

"I don't know why I watched the presidential debates," he said. "If I want to watch a smart liberal Democrat and a Republican leader argue, all we have to do is go out to dinner. They were lucky. They only had to do it three times."
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