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Old 10-14-2004, 10:33 AM   #61
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What exactly is wrong with bringing up Cheney's daughter? Lynne Cheney did not elaborate. She just called him a bad man. Is she saying that the daughter's homosexuality is a shameful condition that she doesn't want to be exposed to the world? Is she not proud of her gay daughter? Kerry only brought her up because she's a well known face on the homosexual issue. It doesn't work as well if he referred to a Lisa NoName down the street. If Kerry's daughter were gay, he would probably bring up her name as well. It's effective to put a face on the matter being discussed, and Cheney's daughter is the best example to offer.
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Old 10-14-2004, 10:38 AM   #62
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Ask the press corp covering the debate... its been reported by CNN and MSNBC that when Kerry mentioned Cheney's daughter, the room let out a groan...
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Old 10-14-2004, 10:45 AM   #63
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Quote:
Originally posted by Flying FuManchu
its been reported by CNN and MSNBC that when Kerry mentioned Cheney's daughter, the room let out a groan...
as did I and my gay friends

Gibson--please read what I and others have said about it. It has nothing to do with shame.
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Old 10-14-2004, 10:54 AM   #64
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Originally posted by Flying FuManchu
diamond... I think this picture is more appropriate...

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Old 10-14-2004, 11:17 AM   #65
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I'm a Kerry supporter and agree he shouldn't have gone there re: Cheney's daughter. He mentioned her at one of the previous debates and the point seemed to flow in that one better. Last night, it seemed like a cheap political point to make...it just felt awkward. Why single out one homosexual person to relay your personal view on homosexuality. I liked Bush's answer better: "I don't know." (When Bush says "I don't know" it's easy to believe him.)

CNN's post debate polling showed Kerry ahead by 6 or 7 point on the question of "which candidate has views closer to your views?" (or something like that...sorry, don't have the exact language). I guess those "cold facts" may actually help the voter to decide.
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Old 10-14-2004, 11:22 AM   #66
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Originally posted by Klaus


There is nothing to be ashamed of being homosexual - so i don't think it's a problem speaking about it.
If she would marry a young man in the next weeks and he spoke about it would you call it a "poor form" too ?
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Old 10-14-2004, 11:31 AM   #67
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Originally posted by Judah
I'm a Kerry supporter and agree he shouldn't have gone there re: Cheney's daughter. He mentioned her at one of the previous debates and the point seemed to flow in that one better. Last night, it seemed like a cheap political point to make...it just felt awkward. Why single out one homosexual person to relay your personal view on homosexuality.
I agree.

Except I thought it was weird when Edwards brought it up, too.
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Old 10-14-2004, 11:40 AM   #68
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we call that being "oppurtunistic" like a trail lawyer
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Old 10-14-2004, 11:46 AM   #69
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It´s amazing how much voters go for the personality of the future President.. some want him "down-to-earth", others "capable of discussing", etc-

I think there were more important issues than the mentioning of Cheney´s daughter. But this topic makes a fine newsline, so it will be repeated over again and again.

In reality, who cares about Kerry mentioning Cheney´s daughter? Does it give a man less integrity? No. I believe Kerry will be respected by the international community, more than Bush. Bush has fucked his NATO partners (Germany and France being two of them) already, so you know, Kerry´s past fight against drugtrafficking comes in handy at this point. Gives him some integrity.

I think the facts are more important. I think one of the most important things that Kerry offers is basic social security for the poor in America regulated by state - you´ll have to see how that works out, but I think it´s a good idea.

In Europe, social security regulated by state means you can still decide for your favourite doctor (Bush´s argument is not working or is it?); you just get the top treatment.. see, last year I probably paid around 600 bucks taxes for the "medicare" part of social security, and got a letter saying I used around 300 bucks. The rest goes to the poor fella next street who has a heart attack or hospital treatment that costs 20 grand - he never could afford on his own. But when it hits me, I will get good treatment. And I can even get additional private medicare if I want to.

I also think a minimum wage of 5.5 US$ is too little in a country where a beer in a bar costs exactly that. Working 3 hours for three beers would just turn me off, if I stayed in the richest nation on earth.

From the international point of view - polls I have seen about the opinions of EU citizens - I would estimate that it´s around 80% Kerry, 20% Bush.
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Old 10-14-2004, 11:53 AM   #70
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Originally posted by whenhiphopdrovethebigcars
From the international point of view - polls I have seen about the opinions of EU citizens - I would estimate that it´s around 80% Kerry, 20% Bush.
Should Kerry run for the President of the EU?


There is a segment of the US population that would take those statistics as a negative for Kerry.
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Old 10-14-2004, 12:00 PM   #71
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It's a political debate for the US Presidency. There's a question on homosexuality. People are looking for leadership, character, conviction and clarity. Here's a chance to look in the tv and say "I believe equal rights for all, including homosexuals. Including gay marriage, since that's the next big battle ground." Or state your position: "I don't know where i am personally on gay marriage. But i'll leave it to the states to decide, or i know the Federal government shouldn't amend the constitution taking this potentially future right away from homosexuals for ever."

Who cares? I would think homosexuals for sure care and deserve a straight (pardon the pun) answer. "I don't know" from Bush, though lacking insight, was at least a straight answer.
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Old 10-14-2004, 12:03 PM   #72
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Quote:
Originally posted by nbcrusader


Should Kerry run for the President of the EU?


There is a segment of the US population that would take those statistics as a negative for Kerry.
1. No.

2. Why?

Why is that negative? Because of the "french frogs" or however that segment of the US population talks about Europeans?
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Old 10-14-2004, 12:09 PM   #73
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On the topic of Kerry mentioning Cheney's daughter: I thought this was an interesting perspective. It's written by Andrew Sullivan, who is a senior editor with The New Republic, a former strong supporter of Bush, and who also happens to be gay. It's taken from his blog.

SOMETHING ABOUT MARY: I keep getting emails asserting that Kerry's mentioning of Mary Cheney is somehow offensive or gratuitous or a "low blow". Huh? Mary Cheney is out of the closet and a member, with her partner, of the vice-president's family. That's a public fact. No one's privacy is being invaded by mentioning this. When Kerry cites Bush's wife or daughters, no one says it's a "low blow." The double standards are entirely a function of people's lingering prejudice against gay people. And by mentioning it, Kerry showed something important. This issue is not an abstract one. It's a concrete, human and real one. It affects many families, and Bush has decided to use this cynically as a divisive weapon in an election campaign. He deserves to be held to account for this - and how much more effective than showing a real person whose relationship and dignity he has attacked and minimized? Does this makes Bush's base uncomfortable? Well, good. It's about time they were made uncomfortable in their acquiescence to discrimination. Does it make Bush uncomfortable? Even better. His decision to bar gay couples from having any protections for their relationships in the constitution is not just a direct attack on the family member of the vice-president. It's an attack on all families with gay members - and on the family as an institution. That's a central issue in this campaign, a key indictment of Bush's record and more than relevant to any debate. For four years, this president has tried to make gay people invisible, to avoid any mention of us, to pretend we don't exist. Well, we do. Right in front of him.
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Old 10-14-2004, 12:10 PM   #74
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Originally posted by whenhiphopdrovethebigcars
2. Why?
I previously addressed the issue here.
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Old 10-14-2004, 01:01 PM   #75
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Originally posted by nbcrusader


I previously addressed the issue here.
Do you mean that many Americans are the opinion that consensus building is not for the good of the interests of their own nation?

I replied with "No" to 1., because I think Kerry´s values are American values. He is American and has served in the American political system for 20 years. So how could his values be less American than those of Bush? And, what exactly are American values? Some will say "to make no compromise". Others will say "to include many viewpoints". Neither Kerry nor Bush would be a good choice for an EU Commission President, because they would have to struggle to unite over 20 different countries.

NB, if what you say is true, it amuses me that Americans think that in a globalized world there are huge differences between "American mindsets" and "American/European mindsets". In some points, there are differences, but arguably not grave ones, given that our countries have basically been cooperating for the last 50 years.

Europeans tend to watch nationalist thoughts - whether they´re American or Turkish, Chinese or German - carefully, even if nationalism can´t be avoided when a nation is as powerful as the U.S.

The thoughts of many Americans remind us Europeans of France 200 years ago, when there was the French Revolution. Like every powerful empire, France was so sure of its own power, they were "La Grande Nation", they had Napoleon, they sang the "Marseillaise", they didn´t give a damn about other nations, just running them over, they were advocating military support in churches, etc. etc.

Same in America now - I have been travelling in the U.S. and I spoke with more than one conservative, seen the "Support our troops", "Pray for America" signs in Catholic Churches

The French were so full of their values, just like many Americans are full of American values nowadays - which isn´t necessarily a bad thing.

Europeans compare a lot, because this is what they have been doing since Greek philosophy. Americans don´t get the comparisons made by Europeans, because they think the American way - and the American way is not to discuss and compare, but to act. Right or wrong, we´ll discuss about that later, now let´s DO something in our American interest.

The quality of action is a good quality, if it covers decisions reached by consensus, whether national consensus for national affairs, or international consensus for international challenges.

I have another question - haven´t heard a "conservative reply" on this one: what about the American aspirations to be the "Leader of the Free World"? I spoke with Americans who openly told me that I, as a European, should thank America for invading Iraq, because that nation was a threat to all the world etc. etc.; Europeans shopuld be thankful that America makes the world a safer place (which I doubt seriously, mind you! but lets stick to the topic).

If you are an American thinking that America has the right to be the "Leader of the Free World", how on earth do you think this is gonna work out? With a nationalist American, who puts American values on the top, before of any others? Or with a strategy of consensus?

YOU CAN´T HAVE BOTH AT THE SAME TIME. You can´t be truly American and, at the same time, the "Leader of the Free World". You can only manage that if you´re planning a dictatorship instead of democracy. And I think no one wants a dictatorship, or do we?
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