3rd Presidential Debate

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What exactly is wrong with bringing up Cheney's daughter? Lynne Cheney did not elaborate. She just called him a bad man. Is she saying that the daughter's homosexuality is a shameful condition that she doesn't want to be exposed to the world? Is she not proud of her gay daughter? Kerry only brought her up because she's a well known face on the homosexual issue. It doesn't work as well if he referred to a Lisa NoName down the street. If Kerry's daughter were gay, he would probably bring up her name as well. It's effective to put a face on the matter being discussed, and Cheney's daughter is the best example to offer.
 
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Flying FuManchu said:
its been reported by CNN and MSNBC that when Kerry mentioned Cheney's daughter, the room let out a groan...

as did I and my gay friends

Gibson--please read what I and others have said about it. It has nothing to do with shame.
 
Flying FuManchu said:
diamond... I think this picture is more appropriate...

13156221_F_tn.jpg
:sexywink:
 
I'm a Kerry supporter and agree he shouldn't have gone there re: Cheney's daughter. He mentioned her at one of the previous debates and the point seemed to flow in that one better. Last night, it seemed like a cheap political point to make...it just felt awkward. Why single out one homosexual person to relay your personal view on homosexuality. I liked Bush's answer better: "I don't know." (When Bush says "I don't know" it's easy to believe him.)

CNN's post debate polling showed Kerry ahead by 6 or 7 point on the question of "which candidate has views closer to your views?" (or something like that...sorry, don't have the exact language). I guess those "cold facts" may actually help the voter to decide.
 
Klaus said:


There is nothing to be ashamed of being homosexual - so i don't think it's a problem speaking about it.
If she would marry a young man in the next weeks and he spoke about it would you call it a "poor form" too ?

:up:
 
Judah said:
I'm a Kerry supporter and agree he shouldn't have gone there re: Cheney's daughter. He mentioned her at one of the previous debates and the point seemed to flow in that one better. Last night, it seemed like a cheap political point to make...it just felt awkward. Why single out one homosexual person to relay your personal view on homosexuality.

I agree. :up:

Except I thought it was weird when Edwards brought it up, too.
 
It´s amazing how much voters go for the personality of the future President.. some want him "down-to-earth", others "capable of discussing", etc-

I think there were more important issues than the mentioning of Cheney´s daughter. But this topic makes a fine newsline, so it will be repeated over again and again.

In reality, who cares about Kerry mentioning Cheney´s daughter? Does it give a man less integrity? No. I believe Kerry will be respected by the international community, more than Bush. Bush has fucked his NATO partners (Germany and France being two of them) already, so you know, Kerry´s past fight against drugtrafficking comes in handy at this point. Gives him some integrity.

I think the facts are more important. I think one of the most important things that Kerry offers is basic social security for the poor in America regulated by state - you´ll have to see how that works out, but I think it´s a good idea.

In Europe, social security regulated by state means you can still decide for your favourite doctor (Bush´s argument is not working or is it?); you just get the top treatment.. see, last year I probably paid around 600 bucks taxes for the "medicare" part of social security, and got a letter saying I used around 300 bucks. The rest goes to the poor fella next street who has a heart attack or hospital treatment that costs 20 grand - he never could afford on his own. But when it hits me, I will get good treatment. And I can even get additional private medicare if I want to.

I also think a minimum wage of 5.5 US$ is too little in a country where a beer in a bar costs exactly that. Working 3 hours for three beers would just turn me off, if I stayed in the richest nation on earth.

From the international point of view - polls I have seen about the opinions of EU citizens - I would estimate that it´s around 80% Kerry, 20% Bush.
 
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whenhiphopdrovethebigcars said:
From the international point of view - polls I have seen about the opinions of EU citizens - I would estimate that it´s around 80% Kerry, 20% Bush.

Should Kerry run for the President of the EU?


There is a segment of the US population that would take those statistics as a negative for Kerry.
 
It's a political debate for the US Presidency. There's a question on homosexuality. People are looking for leadership, character, conviction and clarity. Here's a chance to look in the tv and say "I believe equal rights for all, including homosexuals. Including gay marriage, since that's the next big battle ground." Or state your position: "I don't know where i am personally on gay marriage. But i'll leave it to the states to decide, or i know the Federal government shouldn't amend the constitution taking this potentially future right away from homosexuals for ever."

Who cares? I would think homosexuals for sure care and deserve a straight (pardon the pun) answer. "I don't know" from Bush, though lacking insight, was at least a straight answer.
 
nbcrusader said:


Should Kerry run for the President of the EU?


There is a segment of the US population that would take those statistics as a negative for Kerry.

1. No.

2. Why?

Why is that negative? Because of the "french frogs" or however that segment of the US population talks about Europeans?
 
On the topic of Kerry mentioning Cheney's daughter: I thought this was an interesting perspective. It's written by Andrew Sullivan, who is a senior editor with The New Republic, a former strong supporter of Bush, and who also happens to be gay. It's taken from his blog.

SOMETHING ABOUT MARY: I keep getting emails asserting that Kerry's mentioning of Mary Cheney is somehow offensive or gratuitous or a "low blow". Huh? Mary Cheney is out of the closet and a member, with her partner, of the vice-president's family. That's a public fact. No one's privacy is being invaded by mentioning this. When Kerry cites Bush's wife or daughters, no one says it's a "low blow." The double standards are entirely a function of people's lingering prejudice against gay people. And by mentioning it, Kerry showed something important. This issue is not an abstract one. It's a concrete, human and real one. It affects many families, and Bush has decided to use this cynically as a divisive weapon in an election campaign. He deserves to be held to account for this - and how much more effective than showing a real person whose relationship and dignity he has attacked and minimized? Does this makes Bush's base uncomfortable? Well, good. It's about time they were made uncomfortable in their acquiescence to discrimination. Does it make Bush uncomfortable? Even better. His decision to bar gay couples from having any protections for their relationships in the constitution is not just a direct attack on the family member of the vice-president. It's an attack on all families with gay members - and on the family as an institution. That's a central issue in this campaign, a key indictment of Bush's record and more than relevant to any debate. For four years, this president has tried to make gay people invisible, to avoid any mention of us, to pretend we don't exist. Well, we do. Right in front of him.
 
nbcrusader said:


I previously addressed the issue here.

Do you mean that many Americans are the opinion that consensus building is not for the good of the interests of their own nation?

I replied with "No" to 1., because I think Kerry´s values are American values. He is American and has served in the American political system for 20 years. So how could his values be less American than those of Bush? And, what exactly are American values? Some will say "to make no compromise". Others will say "to include many viewpoints". Neither Kerry nor Bush would be a good choice for an EU Commission President, because they would have to struggle to unite over 20 different countries.

NB, if what you say is true, it amuses me that Americans think that in a globalized world there are huge differences between "American mindsets" and "American/European mindsets". In some points, there are differences, but arguably not grave ones, given that our countries have basically been cooperating for the last 50 years.

Europeans tend to watch nationalist thoughts - whether they´re American or Turkish, Chinese or German - carefully, even if nationalism can´t be avoided when a nation is as powerful as the U.S.

The thoughts of many Americans remind us Europeans of France 200 years ago, when there was the French Revolution. Like every powerful empire, France was so sure of its own power, they were "La Grande Nation", they had Napoleon, they sang the "Marseillaise", they didn´t give a damn about other nations, just running them over, they were advocating military support in churches, etc. etc.

Same in America now - I have been travelling in the U.S. and I spoke with more than one conservative, seen the "Support our troops", "Pray for America" signs in Catholic Churches

The French were so full of their values, just like many Americans are full of American values nowadays - which isn´t necessarily a bad thing.

Europeans compare a lot, because this is what they have been doing since Greek philosophy. Americans don´t get the comparisons made by Europeans, because they think the American way - and the American way is not to discuss and compare, but to act. Right or wrong, we´ll discuss about that later, now let´s DO something in our American interest.

The quality of action is a good quality, if it covers decisions reached by consensus, whether national consensus for national affairs, or international consensus for international challenges.

I have another question - haven´t heard a "conservative reply" on this one: what about the American aspirations to be the "Leader of the Free World"? I spoke with Americans who openly told me that I, as a European, should thank America for invading Iraq, because that nation was a threat to all the world etc. etc.; Europeans shopuld be thankful that America makes the world a safer place (which I doubt seriously, mind you! but lets stick to the topic).

If you are an American thinking that America has the right to be the "Leader of the Free World", how on earth do you think this is gonna work out? With a nationalist American, who puts American values on the top, before of any others? Or with a strategy of consensus?

YOU CAN´T HAVE BOTH AT THE SAME TIME. You can´t be truly American and, at the same time, the "Leader of the Free World". You can only manage that if you´re planning a dictatorship instead of democracy. And I think no one wants a dictatorship, or do we?
 
whenhiphopdrovethebigcars said:


I think there were more important issues than the mentioning of Cheney´s daughter. But this topic makes a fine newsline, so it will be repeated over again and again.

In reality, who cares about Kerry mentioning Cheney´s daughter? Does it give a man less integrity? No. I believe Kerry will be respected by the international community, more than Bush. Bush has fucked his NATO partners (Germany and France being two of them) already, so you know, Kerry´s past fight against drugtrafficking comes in handy at this point. Gives him some integrity.


I agree with you. In the bigger scope of things, mentioning Cheney's daughter is not a big deal and won't change any minds already made up. I mentioned it because it irritated me, that's all. And I am not one to stand by my man and agree with everything he says.
 
nbcrusader said:


There is a segment of the US population that would take those statistics as a negative for Kerry.

I think that's probably true and a very sad statement about the arrogance and ignorance of this segment of the US population.
 
She says it gave her another chance to "assess" John Kerry, and she says it only reinforced her opinion that "This is not a good man." Cheney says she's "speaking as a mom, and a pretty indignant mom."

If she's such an indignant mom, why didn't she stand up for daughter when the Gay Marriage Amendment was going through Congress? Why does she try and hide the fact that she wrote a book with a lesbian love scene? I actually didn't like Kerry mentioning Cheney's daughter, especially considering he was debating Bush. I thought it was more out of place last night than during the vice presidential debate. But I don't like Cheney's reaction to it either. NOW he decides to stand for his daughter? He didn't stand up for his daughter against Bush during the whole amendment crap. He didn't stand up for his daughter at the convention when either she or the RNC decided it would be best if she didn't go on stage after her dad's speech. He didn't stand up for his daughter against the Republicans who voted for a platform that doesn't even allow civil unions. Both are in the wrong here: Kerry for mentioning it and Cheney for defending her when the Democrats mention her but keeping his mouth shut when his boss tries to push through a discriminatory Constitutional amendment. You shouldn't pick and choose when to defend your daughter based on what party the person is from.
 
sharky said:

Both are in the wrong here: Kerry for mentioning it and Cheney for defending her when the Democrats mention her but keeping his mouth shut when his boss tries to push through a discriminatory Constitutional amendment. You shouldn't pick and choose when to defend your daughter based on what party the person is from.

Exactly. What Kerry did can't be justified at all by the Cheneys' seeming hypocrisy about their daughter, but still..it all just stinks

Lynn Cheney wrote a lesbian love scene? I think I'd like to read that..:wink:
 
sharky said:

You shouldn't pick and choose when to defend your daughter based on what party the person is from.

Probably the Cheney´s family situation is very typical for a career-oriented father.

What do you think the mother can do (according to the family´s conservative values) except of supporting him.

In reality, this is not so much about Kerry; it´s not his family. This is about conservative family values vs. loving your daughter and supporting her way of life.

Uh, sorry for the thematic side step.
 
Well this is what one prominent politician and one gay politician had to say about the matter:

Some politicians who have struggled with the issue said Thursday that Kerry's comments were well within bounds. "I think what John Kerry said was very kind," said Rep. Dick Gephardt (news - web sites), D-Mo., whose daughter is a lesbian.


Former Republican Rep. Steve Gunderson, who is gay, said: "It's trying to put a human face and make clear the issue of one's sexual orientation does not honor partisan lines."
 
sharky said:


If she's such an indignant mom, why didn't she stand up for daughter when the Gay Marriage Amendment was going through Congress? Why does she try and hide the fact that she wrote a book with a lesbian love scene? I actually didn't like Kerry mentioning Cheney's daughter, especially considering he was debating Bush. I thought it was more out of place last night than during the vice presidential debate. But I don't like Cheney's reaction to it either. NOW he decides to stand for his daughter? He didn't stand up for his daughter against Bush during the whole amendment crap. He didn't stand up for his daughter at the convention when either she or the RNC decided it would be best if she didn't go on stage after her dad's speech. He didn't stand up for his daughter against the Republicans who voted for a platform that doesn't even allow civil unions. Both are in the wrong here: Kerry for mentioning it and Cheney for defending her when the Democrats mention her but keeping his mouth shut when his boss tries to push through a discriminatory Constitutional amendment. You shouldn't pick and choose when to defend your daughter based on what party the person is from.

:up:
 
Didn't Cheney's daughter publicly step to the foreground to support her father and Bush with the campaign? And also explicitly mention that she was gay and thus (still) supported them?

edit: Found the thread after a bit of searching.
http://forum.interference.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=87365
Now, while the New York Press article this thread is referring to is not friendly to say the least, it does show the fact that Mary Cheney herself stepped to the foreground to join the re-election campaign.
 
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"Understanding Tax Cuts"
by: David R. Kamerschen, Ph.D

Sometimes politicians, journalists and the liberal
left exclaim; "It's just a tax cut for the rich!" and
it is just accepted to be fact.

But what does that really mean?

Just in case you are not completely clear on this
issue, I hope the following will help. Please read
it carefully.

Let's put tax cuts in terms everyone can understand.

Suppose that every day, ten men go out for dinner
and the bill for all ten comes to $100.

If they paid their bill the way we pay our taxes, it
would go something like this:

The first four men (the poorest) would pay nothing.

The fifth would pay $1.

The sixth would pay $3.

The seventh would pay $7.

The eighth would pay $12.

The ninth would pay $18.

The tenth man (the richest) would pay $59.

So, that's what they decided to do.

The ten men ate dinner in the restaurant every day
and seemed quite happy with the arrangement,
until one day, the owner threw them a curve.

"Since you are all such good customers," he said,
"I'm going to reduce the cost of your daily meal by
$20." Dinner for the ten now cost just $80.

The group still wanted to pay their bill the way we
pay our taxes so the first four men were unaffected.
They would still eat for free. But what about the
other six men - the paying customers? How could
they divide the $20 windfall so that everyone would
get his 'fair share?'

They realized that $20 divided by six is $3.33. But if
they subtracted that from everybody's share, then
the fifth man and the sixth man would each end up
being paid to eat their meal.

So, the restaurant owner suggested that it would
be fair to reduce each man's bill by roughly the
same amount, and he proceeded to work out the
amounts each should pay.

And so:

The fifth man, like the first four, now paid nothing
(100% savings).

The sixth now paid $2 instead of $3 (33% savings).

The seventh now paid $5 instead of $7 (28% savings).

The eighth now paid $9 instead of $12 (25% savings).

The ninth now paid $14 instead of $18 (22% savings).

The tenth now paid $49 instead of $59 (16% savings).

Each of the six was better off than before. And the first
four continued to eat for free. But once outside the
restaurant, the men began to compare their savings.

"I only got a dollar out of the $20," declared the sixth
man. He pointed to the tenth man," but he got $10!"

"Yeah, that's right," exclaimed the fifth man. "I only
saved a dollar, too. It's unfair that he got ten times
more than me!"

"That's true!!" shouted the seventh man. "Why
should he get $10 back when I got only two?
The wealthy get all the breaks!"

"Wait a minute," yelled the first four men in unison.
"We didn't get anything at all. The system exploits
the poor!"

The nine men surrounded the tenth and beat him up.

The next night the tenth man didn't show up for dinner,
so the nine sat down and ate without him. But when it
came time to pay the bill, they discovered something
important. They didn't have enough money between
all of them for even half of the bill!

And that, boys and girls, journalists and college
professors, is how our tax system works. The
people who pay the highest taxes get the most
benefit from a tax reduction. Tax them too much,
attack them for being wealthy, and they just may
not show up anymore. In fact, they might start
eating overseas where the atmosphere is
somewhat friendlier.

David R. Kamerschen, Ph.D
Professor of Economics
University of Georgia
 
Re Kerry's Embracing a Gay Female Republican

well w all the oppurtunistic hoopla from this transparent attempt of compassion, no gay republicans are flocking to kerry over this calulated manuever

american ppl have an innate knack for recognizing phonies. :wink:
 
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Re: Re Kerry's Embracing a Gay Female Republican

diamond said:
well w all the oppurtunistic hoopla from this transparent attempt of compassion, no gay republicans are flocking to kerry over this calulated manuever

While the Log Cabin Republicans are not supporting Kerry, for the first time since they were founded, they did not endorce the Republican nominee for president. what does that tell you?
 
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