28,000 Texas FIFTH Graders are.....

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Dreadsox

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Being held back this year and are repeating 5th grade.

[Q]Held back by TAKS
Parents offered tips to help fifth-graders who repeat grade


07:59 AM CDT on Friday, August 5, 2005


By HERB BOOTH / The Dallas Morning News


When the bell rings for the first day of school, about 10 percent of the state's 280,000-plus sixth-graders won't be there.

They'll still be in fifth grade.

The 2004-05 fifth-graders were the first students to be held back at that grade level because they didn't pass the Texas Assessment of Knowledge and Skills after three tries. A similar hurdle was placed before these students when they were in third grade, and they'll be in the vanguard again when they're in eighth grade.

Parents need not fear this process, educators say. There are resources available to those whose children have fallen behind or been held back. In addition, educators say, retention actually can help students.

Such high-stakes testing is not unique to Texas. About half the states have instituted some type of must-pass testing, according to the Education Commission of the States. President Bush's No Child Left Behind education law requires standardized tests in reading and math for third through eighth grades.

In Texas, tying the TAKS test to grade promotion grew out of the belief that social promotion – advancing students, regardless of academic progress, to keep them with their peers – is harmful.

Texas Education Agency spokeswoman Suzanne Marchman agrees with that theory.

"Of course, we're concerned about the psychological well-being of students who are retained," she said.

"But research has shown that students who are promoted not having the appropriate skills for that grade level are harmed more than those who aren't. They are more likely to drop out."

Ms. Marchman said the agency put out information through its Web site about the requirements and implications if third- or fifth-graders don't pass the TAKS. She said TAKS study guides are available to give students a boost.

In addition, she said, the TEA offered $39 million in competitive grants for the Texas Reading First Initiative in 2004-05 to implement scientifically based reading programs.

Many districts offer parents advice through Web sites, which include tips on how to help their children learn. The National Education Association Web site also is replete with information to help parents.

DallasNews.com/extra

Navigating Your School: Tips for parents, students, teachers
While reading to younger children is a common suggestion, Jan Bolinsky, a fifth-grade teacher at Brandenburg Intermediate School in Duncanville, said simply reading isn't enough anymore. She said TAKS requires more thinking than that.

"You need to interact with a child when reading," Ms. Bolinsky said. "Ask why the character is doing that in the book. Ask if that's strange or what do you think about that. Teach them to think. They'll have to figure out the answer. You're making them think, and they get a feeling of knowing how to find out."

In an effort to help students who are held back, teachers and administrators are developing systems and using new programs to address their needs. Some use small groups, mentoring or tutoring.

But teachers admit they can't do it all.

"That's changed," Ms. Bolinsky said. "There are so many ways and places to find the answers."

Ms. Bolinsky said her method would make the subject matter "more real" for students.

"I'm going to strive to make learning more practical for these students. Make it something they can relate to, something they can see. You can't just put it out there because the students didn't understand the first time," said Ms. Bolinsky, who was Duncanville's elementary teacher of the year in 2004. "You have to individualize plans to reach these students. You have to be positive, make them feel like they're leaders."

Linda Polk, a fifth-grade teacher at Dallas' J.W. Ray Elementary School, said an individualized plan might increase reading or employ hands-on activities.

"You have to ask the question, 'What worked and what didn't work for this student?' " Ms. Polk said.

Educators have access to the TAKS questions and answers that the retained students missed.

"We can take that and further assess the students to target what they need to learn," said Jane Clevenger, a fifth-grade teacher at Dallas' Leila P. Cowart Elementary School. "Supposedly, we'll have that on the computer this year. What the information allows us to do is set up a profile system for each student."

Regardless of what method, program or instruction teachers employ, they'll be relying heavily on another important component to these students' education: their parents.

"Parental support is a key in reaching not just these students, but all students," Ms. Clevenger said. "They need to be part of a student's individual plan."

Finally, educators said, parents shouldn't be all that alarmed if their children are held back.

Liz Birdwell, director of elementary and intermediate education for Duncanville schools, said most students benefit from being retained.

"It doesn't benefit a child to keep social promotions," Ms. Birdwell said. "That student never catches up. From my experience, there have been very few students who haven't benefited when they've been retained."

Ms. Polk said educators and parents notice retention a lot more than the students.

"I'm not too sure they totally understand it," Ms. Polk said. "They may not know the reality of retention until it happens. They adjust among their new peers just fine."

[/Q]

http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/dn/education/stories/080505dnmettaks.1c46a1c2.html
 
28,000

In my ten year career.....

I have NEVER seen a kid in 5th grade retained.

I just saw my 1st 4th grader retained....
 
I never actually heard of anybody around my age group getting held back that early. This was in 6th / 7th grade
All I can say is that I really hope this does help because if its true, that kids are really falling behind it would be better to get the system back on track and not letting kids slide just to get them on another grade.
It makes me sad to hear of adults that are almost illiterate because they have such a hard time doing things that other people can do with no problem
 
I don't necessarily think that being held back a grade is harmful to children (I skipped year 6 in school [5th grade in the US] and I think I benefited from that, rather than it being a problem) but surely if 10% of all children in the state are being held back a grade it indicates a wider problem. Whether that problem is with the quality of teaching, or with the assessment which determined those students would be held back a grade, I don't know, but it does seem to indicate some problem with the education system in Texas.
 
28,000 = 1/10th of the 5th grade population in TX.

If 1/10th of the kids are being kept back in any grade there is something seriously wrong.

Traditionally, students in the town I work in are identified and retained in the 1st, 2nd, or 3rd grades, at an age when there is likely less social stigma surrounding the retention.

With NCLB students in TX should be identified in the 3rd grade and 4th grade....fifth grade, is VERY late.
 
This story is no more encouraging, but for me at least, it clarified the 3rd grade/5th grade discrepancy thing a bit.

3rd, 5th graders who failed TAKS to be held back

Gustavo Reveles Acosta
El Paso Times, 19 July 2005

When El Paso children go back to school this fall, there might be an abundance of second-year fifth-graders who have been retained for failing the TAKS.

But figures released by the El Paso, Ysleta and Socorro independent school districts show fewer third-graders than fifth-graders could potentially be held back for failing the Texas Assessment of Knowledge and Skills during the 2004-05 school year.

"It's scary to think that there will be a bunch of fifth-graders sticking around in the elementary school instead of going on to middle school," West Side parent Robert Zuñiga said. "My kids passed, but it could easily happen to anyone."

Overall, fifth-graders performed at a lower level than third-graders. Although this was third year third-graders must pass the reading portion of the TAKS to be promoted to fourth grade, it is the first time fifth-graders were required pass both the reading and the math portions of the test. While the El Paso and Socorro districts had third-grade passing percentage rates in the mid-90s, the rates for fifth-graders in both districts were in the mid-80s.

Patsy Bulos, a teacher who served as a literacy coordinator at MacArthur Intermediate last year, said she was surprised to see so many fifth-graders fail the reading test given their high marks two years ago when they were in the third grade. "I know the teachers and the students work hard, but I don't feel we are reaching these students early enough," she said.


El Paso TAKS results:
Third-grade reading: Out of 4,490 students, 268 (6 percent) failed.

Fifth-grade reading: Out of 4,477 students, 533 (12.8 percent) failed.

Fifth-grade math: Out of 4,235 students, 520 (12.3 percent) failed.



Originally posted by Dreadsox
I have NEVER seen a kid in 5th grade retained.

I just saw my 1st 4th grader retained....

Wow!!! You're in Boston, right? My sister-in-law teaches in Wilmington--I will have to ask her if she's noticed the same. In Mississippi, where I grew up, it was quite common to see kids repeating 4th, 5th, 6th grades. Then again, MS has the worst schools in the country, according to most studies...

In your opinion, is there something intrinsic about 5th grade that ought to make it easier to pass? I understand the principle that the effects of poor preparation are cumulative, but isn't it also possible that they might just be doing a poorer job teaching 5th-grade-level skills than 3rd-grade level skills?
 
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verte76 said:
Something is wrong with the schools in Texas. I'm just glad I'm not a parent there.

Simply moving students to the next grade is not a sign that the schools are OK.

I'm sure this will be challenged for a variety of reasons.
 
nbcrusader said:


Simply moving students to the next grade is not a sign that the schools are OK.

Very good point.

I'm lucky to be in a very good school district, and our school has plenty of money poured into it, at least. But I still get this feeling that there's something wrong with our school system, and I can't put my finger on it. I feel like we lack challenges, discipline, the necessity to work hard...and that's largely on the part of the students (although I'm talking middle/high school level, not the fifth grade). Most of the kids around me don't even bother to work hard, and they get away with it. I don't think there's any magical solution to our school system, half the other kids are too spoiled to appreciate their education.
 
The problem with this type of testing is that people are going to start teaching to the test, rather than teaching to the courses. You know what I mean? Like....teachers aren't going to start teaching only things that appear on the tests and won't give kids more knowledge.

It could be very dangerous for the education system in America.
 
yolland said:


In your opinion, is there something intrinsic about 5th grade that ought to make it easier to pass? I understand the principle that the effects of poor preparation are cumulative, but isn't it also possible that they might just be doing a poorer job teaching 5th-grade-level skills than 3rd-grade level skills?


In my opinion....no way.....

When you look at the area of Mathematics in the elementary school, you are generally looking at a spiralling curriculum. there are very few new concepts introduced from year to year when you look at the way things are set up.

For example, this past year I looped with my whole class. I took the exact class of thrid graders through third and 4th grades. When you look at the concepts in the textbooks, the text books are basically set up so that in each chapter you have approximately 85% repeated material, with the rest being new concepts. This is MOST chapters...there are usually more new concepts later in the text.

Notice, I am saying this is the way a curriculum is built. Most curriculums are designed to build on each year.....

For me, accounting for 50% of my students education taking the test this past year, I really felt the pressure to produce. I had the third grade results to build on, examine, and use to target areas for improvement.

If Texas only is testing in grades 3 and 5, that is a two year gap. IN MA, we are now testing Grade3-8. Reading and Math, with Social Studies and Science being tested in the 5th grade as well. Currrently to graduate with a diploma in MA you must pass the Grade 10 test in Reading, Math, and Science, otherwise you receive a certificate of attendance on graduation day, not a diploma.
 
I've heard the occasional story of a kid being held back a grade when I was in school, but that many kids being held back? That's kinda raising some questions there.

I've wondered sometimes if certain problems with the learning process in some schools is due to kids being taught in a way that they'll remember the material up to test time, but then will immediately forget about said material once the next unit starts. It seems sometimes that kids aren't being taught stuff in a way that they can remember it for a longer period of time, instead of just for that one unit.

Angela
 
Moonlit_Angel said:
It seems sometimes that kids aren't being taught stuff in a way that they can remember it for a longer period of time, instead of just for that one unit.

Angela

And that is EXACTLY part of the current problem. How often do we learn something, and exxpect ourselves to remember it past the test?

As an educator, it is important to recognize learning styles. It is also important to NOT hold back the entire class when a majority of the students understand a concept.

You can incorporate daily review activities, to keep the students who get it fresh, and give students who did not get it, further opportunities and exposure to eventually get the concept.

I cannot tell you how frustrating it is when teachers do not get through the curriculum.
 
Dreadsox said:
And that is EXACTLY part of the current problem. How often do we learn something, and exxpect ourselves to remember it past the test?

As an educator, it is important to recognize learning styles. It is also important to NOT hold back the entire class when a majority of the students understand a concept.

You can incorporate daily review activities, to keep the students who get it fresh, and give students who did not get it, further opportunities and exposure to eventually get the concept.

Agreed. One problem at some of the schools I went to is that the teachers weren't always available before or after school to help kids with any problems they were having in a class, and a lot of the activities the teachers were a part of before and after school were ones that really could've waited-they had a job to do, they were to teach these kids the material. That was a big problem with me for geometry class in particular-wasn't always able to find a teacher to help me with it.

And any that I did find didn't explain it in a way that make it any easier for me to understand (sadly, by the time I took geometry, my favorite math teacher ever was off teaching at another school in another town-I wish he'd still been around then, I could've gone to him and he probably would've made it make so much more sense to me. He was really good at that). In that case, like you said, different learning styles are worth noting. The way I learned things in my English and history classes (a couple of my best subjects) was different from the way I learned things in math and science classes.

My parents talked about how, when they were kids, there was always a teacher around to help them when they had trouble with a subject, and those teachers still had a lot of other commitments, too-they were able to juggle it all just fine. Sadly, that wasn't always the case at my schools.

Originally posted by Dreadsox
I cannot tell you how frustrating it is when teachers do not get through the curriculum.

I imagine it is. I remember teachers telling us that we needed to get such and such units finished by the end of the semester/end of the year, and they'd usually say that when we were taking longer than they'd anticipated with a certain unit.

Angela
 
unosdostres14 said:
The problem with this type of testing is that people are going to start teaching to the test, rather than teaching to the courses. You know what I mean? Like....teachers aren't going to start teaching only things that appear on the tests and won't give kids more knowledge.

It could be very dangerous for the education system in America.

This is a problem with any incentive system. Make a simple, measurable incentive, and people will work to that single point and ignore the larger goal.
 
my sister said that theres a lot of problems with kids testing badly in the school district in california because of all the hispanics that cant speak english.
Therefore they are dragging the test scores down.
Dont know if its entirely accurate but its a thought. Texas is on the border.
 
unosdostres14 said:
The problem with this type of testing is that people are going to start teaching to the test, rather than teaching to the courses. You know what I mean? Like....teachers aren't going to start teaching only things that appear on the tests and won't give kids more knowledge.

It could be very dangerous for the education system in America.

This is not true....and I will explain why at least in MA.

The State of Massachusetts, like any state, is supposed to publish documents called curriculum frameworks. The curriculum frameworks detail to the towns exactly what skills and concepts are supposed to be taught. From these documents you are supposed to create your curriculum. From the curriculum the teachers are supposed to create the dynamic lessons that help children learn.

The state assessment tests are not tests that can be taught to. they are tests designed to measure a school systems effectiveness at covering the materials outlines in the state frameworks, the document that all curriculum is to be based upon.

You are not teachintg to the test. I know it seams like semantics, but, it is not. The test changes EVERY year. It is not the same test. Because the frameworks are pretty vast documents, there may only be a question on a certain mathematical concept. That particular concept may appear every other year.
 
nbcrusader said:


This is a problem with any incentive system. Make a simple, measurable incentive, and people will work to that single point and ignore the larger goal.

Yeah, but at least they'll be learning SOMETHING. Even if it isn't everything, it's something.

Since I'm not a teacher, I'll ask this question humbly.... if you're not teaching to the test, what are you teaching to? How do you quantify whether the kids are ready to move onto the next level?

A corollary question is what is a better predictor of future success, tests or teachers? Because if tests are less reliable than the grades that a teacher gives out, then of course this is a bad policy, but if the inverse is true...

And the next thought I had was that if testing is the answer, why would anyone expect that it would work in the first or second year? Do you understand what I mean? If you implement a policy on 5th graders (having not done so in the proceeding 5 years of school, you are guaranteed to catch a bunch of kids who were unprepared for 5th grade in the 1st place) - The true measure of its effectiveness can't be seen in one year, it will take several years to get the older kids caught up or graduated out. Not being an educator and not having any children allows me to be an arm chair quarterback, so that is why I'm asking questions.

More money hasn't seemed to be the solution, school vouchers are roundly booed, so what will the solution be? Is there even a solution? My opinion is that if the parents were more involved educators could be left to actually teach, but with the progressive dissolution of the family, that seems to be a harder and harder thing to ask for, much less guarantee.

Edited to correct grammar :wink: :laugh:
 
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Dreadsox said:


This is not true....and I will explain why at least in MA.

The State of Massachusetts, like any state, is supposed to publish documents called curriculum frameworks. The curriculum frameworks detail to the towns exactly what skills and concepts are supposed to be taught. From these documents you are supposed to create your curriculum. From the curriculum the teachers are supposed to create the dynamic lessons that help children learn.

The state assessment tests are not tests that can be taught to. they are tests designed to measure a school systems effectiveness at covering the materials outlines in the state frameworks, the document that all curriculum is to be based upon.

You are not teachintg to the test. I know it seams like semantics, but, it is not. The test changes EVERY year. It is not the same test. Because the frameworks are pretty vast documents, there may only be a question on a certain mathematical concept. That particular concept may appear every other year.

You obviously know a lot more about this than I do. But it just seemed to me that having such a stringent pass/fail policy on one standarized test might not be such a good idea.
 
Dreadsox said:



You are not teachintg to the test. I know it seams like semantics, but, it is not. The test changes EVERY year. It is not the same test. Because the frameworks are pretty vast documents, there may only be a question on a certain mathematical concept. That particular concept may appear every other year.

But what I'm wondering is - you need to prepare your students essentially for standardized testing, correct? IMO, developing an aptitude for excelling on a standardized test is a skill in itself, which many people don't even realize until way later on when they're taking SATs, LSATs, MCATs, GREs, GMATs, etc.

So in a way, to best prepare your students for the test, don't you have to spend at least some time teaching them the skills of taking a standardized test (like timing, etc) and if so, isn't that considered teaching them for a test?
 
anitram said:


But what I'm wondering is - you need to prepare your students essentially for standardized testing, correct? IMO, developing an aptitude for excelling on a standardized test is a skill in itself, which many people don't even realize until way later on when they're taking SATs, LSATs, MCATs, GREs, GMATs, etc.

So in a way, to best prepare your students for the test, don't you have to spend at least some time teaching them the skills of taking a standardized test (like timing, etc) and if so, isn't that considered teaching them for a test?

The test is untimed at the elementary school level. I do teach them how to handle a problem in which they may not immediately know the answer.

It is not the bulk of my teaching time, if it were they would not pass.

Teaching to the test, is not, in my opinion the equivalent of teaching test skills.

Teaching to the test would be teaching only the things you think might be on the test, verses teaching a broad curriculum of knowledge.
 
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I have a friend who is a teacher and it is truly jaw dropping how inefficient, pompous, and underfunded the US educational system really is.

My friend had a girl in his 9th grade class who was 18 and couldnt read and was repeating 9th grade for the 4th time. One question how did she get that far in the first place.

Teachers are INSTRUCTED to pass kids at any cost by administrators who are instructed by state officials who are coerced by the Bush administration....

The educational system is SEVERELY broken in the US. The saddest thing of all is that the people in power seem to think that they have appointed by God or at least a very apathetic public to remedy this problem by shifting blame and instituting a bunch of crappy standardized tests (see Englands Tripos exam for how that works) when they arent too busy smugly mugging it up for the various news cameras and night shows.

Its just a sad and tragic story and the victims in this little moronic adult chess game are children. Mother Nature is weeping for the future that she left to the hands of man.
 
peacepandemic said:

Teachers are INSTRUCTED to pass kids at any cost by administrators who are instructed by state officials who are coerced by the Bush administration....

Quite frankly, this is wrong.....State Officials and the Bush administration have nothing to do with passing children along....


Retention is something the administration has been fighting for. The President fought for it in Texas, and hecertainly has not been in favor of passing people along.
 
VertigoGal said:


Very good point.

I'm lucky to be in a very good school district, and our school has plenty of money poured into it, at least. But I still get this feeling that there's something wrong with our school system, and I can't put my finger on it. I feel like we lack challenges, discipline, the necessity to work hard...and that's largely on the part of the students (although I'm talking middle/high school level, not the fifth grade). Most of the kids around me don't even bother to work hard, and they get away with it. I don't think there's any magical solution to our school system, half the other kids are too spoiled to appreciate their education.

ahh good old A'retta and the $$$$$$$$.
 
Dreadsox said:


Quite frankly, this is wrong.....State Officials and the Bush administration have nothing to do with passing children along....


Retention is something the administration has been fighting for. The President fought for it in Texas, and hecertainly has not been in favor of passing people along.

If you disagree with me, take it up with my friend. He teaches every day and I have a flawless memory for the stories he relates to me. Now if you are disagreeing with me because you dont want to believe it, thats for you to sort out.
 
I don't like standardized tests, and I know enough perfectly intelligent people who plain don't test well.

On the other hand, I agree that social promotion is not a good idea, but whether someone passes or fails should be determined by the year's coursework and studies, not some generic state dot test.

Melon
 
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