23 year old American Rachel killed by Israeli Army Bulldozer - Page 5 - U2 Feedback

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Old 04-06-2003, 06:28 PM   #61
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Why don´t they just fuckin shoot us all.
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Old 04-08-2003, 11:00 AM   #62
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Honestly, I just pray, pray that this doesn't get any worst..... I am inspired by Rachel's devotion to the suffering people of the West Bank... Some people think that it was stupid for her to be infront of the bull dozer... Well, the problem is, there are to few people who are infront of that bull dozer, we have to many people who think to much of themselves and very few that understand the passion of peace.. I really would love to go to the West Bank myself and get a reality check that everyone here wouldn't understand fully untill u witness it.... Children and innocent people are killed every day in the West Bank... All are deprived of education and water... While we sit on our healthy asses, thousends are being slowly killed in the west Bank... And we wonder, why are there so many terrorists?

hmmmm...
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Old 04-08-2003, 12:24 PM   #63
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The German Foreign minister Joschka Fischer traveled to Israel to talk to Sharon and ask him to support Abbas a and give his democratic reforms a chance.

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Old 04-08-2003, 02:01 PM   #64
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This thread is a piece of crap.

I am thinking about starting threads about how many Israelis, no let me change that, how many AMERICANS have been killed by Palestinian suicide bombers as all I see in FYM is how evil Israel is.

The bottom line is that Israel has a policy for bulldozing houses that they can justify as having to do with terrorism or against any of its other laws.

Period.

The Israelis know this, the Palestinians know this, and yes, the Americans know this (the reason why these "human-shields" are there.)

Whether you agree with this policy or not, if you are in full knowledge of Israel's policy, and you know they are going to demolish the house, you do not kneel in front of the bulldozer without understanding that you are willing to give your life for your action.

This girl did know the policy, did know what the outcome would be, was willing to give her life for her cause, and DID kneel in front of the bulldozer.

She gave her life for her cause.

Remember, the driver did not see her:

Quote:
The Israeli military said the driver of the bulldozer had not seen the woman, and called it a "very regrettable accident."

She should have moved out of the way.


To me, this is not news, and this is not debatable.
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Old 04-08-2003, 02:11 PM   #65
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Quote:
Originally posted by ouizy
This thread is a piece of crap.
Your reply is a piece of crap.
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Old 04-08-2003, 04:28 PM   #66
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ouzi:
>This thread is a piece of crap.
you don't have to read it if you can't stand facts we are discussing here.

>...how many Israelis, ...AMERICANS
>have been killed by Palestinian
>suicide bombers ...

My point in this as in many other conflicts was:

Suicide attacks are crimes, no excuses for such a behaviour.
But suicide attacks can't be a excuse for a government to violate human rights and even punish innocent civilians.
If a government starts to kill innocent people on a regulare base there's something going wrong - verry wrong.

And i don't give a *** if this is a country i like or not, if the government dosn't respect human life anymore we have to care about that.

>The bottom line is that Israel has a
>policy for bulldozing houses that they
>can justify as having to do with
>terrorism or against any of its other
>laws.

Just because a government dosn't violate the laws it wrote down itself dosn't mean that they are doing a fine job! There are a lot of countries who abuse the word terrorism to terrorize civilians (not only the country we are talking about here)

"Period."
jes, period

"The Israelis know this, the Palestinians know this, and yes, the Americans know this (the reason why these "human-shields" are there.)"

Rachel was willing to give her life away for her ideals - i respect this in the same manner that i respect a soldier who is willing to give his live away to protect his country.

"Whether you agree with this policy or not, if you are in full knowledge of Israel's policy, and you know they are going to demolish the house, you do not kneel in front of the bulldozer without understanding that you are willing to give your life for your action."

It's like "if you know Saddams policy, simply respect his will and you won't be punished! (No i don't compare these to governments, i just want to show you who could use this argument too)

There's allways a way that you won't get hurt (or at least you can reduce the chance of being hurt). But i have deep respect for people who change the world to a better place and are willing
to even pay with their life.

"This girl did know the policy, did know what the outcome would be, was willing to give her life for her cause, and DID kneel in front of the bulldozer.
"

These guys and girls are called idealists. They are the ones who actually chance the world. That's the spirit who was with the people who stopped absolutism, who stoped slavery....

Klaus
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Old 04-08-2003, 04:58 PM   #67
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Quote:
Originally posted by ouizy
This thread is a piece of crap.

I am thinking about starting threads about how many Israelis, no let me change that, how many AMERICANS have been killed by Palestinian suicide bombers as all I see in FYM is how evil Israel is.
Actually, if you look at how many Palestinians and Israelis have died since September 2000 (the beginning of the current intifada) the number of Palestinians killed by the IDF far outweighs the number of Israelis killed in suicide bombings. Of course it's horrible to think just in "numbers" and we shouldn't ever forget that every one of those people, both Israeli and Palestinian is a real person, not just a statistic.

Also, I don't think it's fair to dismiss the replies to this thread as just about "how evil Israel is" - I think people have a right to be disgusted at some of the actions of the IDF, and to express disagreement with those actions or the actions of the Israeli state certainly isn't to claim that Israel is "evil".
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Old 04-08-2003, 07:17 PM   #68
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Quote:
Your reply is a piece of crap.
Thank you very much, I knew that from the outset.

Quote:
There's allways a way that you won't get hurt (or at least you can reduce the chance of being hurt). But i have deep respect for people who change the world to a better place and are willing to even pay with their life.
Klaus, understand me, I respect the article and even the topic you posted here. I even understand your wanting the story not to go away because we are fighting a war in Iraq, but when I read replies like:

Quote:
MURDER!

THIS IS MURDER!

OF A US CITIZEN!!!!!!

Were are the troops???

Invade Israel immediately and crush their murderous regime.

And no Im not joking.
The subject immediately turns to crap for me simply because she conscioulsy decided to kneel in front of a moving bulldozer she knew would tear down that house.

1. I call that suicide and not murder
2. US citizen or not, that has no weight.
3. Where are the troops??? (Israel is and should be one of our allies.)
4. Invade Israel... (simple ignorance.)

You cannot bring about your own death and blame others simply because you do not agree with their policy.

No one asked her to go there, she was compelled to, no one asked her to sit down in fron of a multiple-ton earth moving machine.

No one asks others to commit suicide, they just do.
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Old 04-08-2003, 07:38 PM   #69
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I think I wasn´t the one to post your third quote, ouizy, but I do agree with the poster in the sense that

1) It is murder, not suicide. Say I´d decide to protest on an American highway against a skyscraper your company builds, you would pass along with a car, see me and knock me down and I would die, it would be near to murder too - you could maybe mask it as an accident and get away though. Or the other way round, I´d be in front of your friends house with a bulldozer and you would stand there to stop me, and I would drive you down - to call that suicide would not help me in court.

2) US citizen or not shouldn´t have any weight, but in real life it has.

3) and 4) your point taken

5) If the same thing happened in Iraq (before of the war) what would the U.S. administration do? They´d tell the media to pump it up and use it to tell the public that´s another reason to invade. If the same thing happened in a European country, there would be an official sorry from the government, if not there´d be diplomatic difficulties at the very least. But, if it happens in Israel, it is labelled an accident, and the American President neither cares to mention the tragic event.

However, I find it very strange to define it as suicide. Suicide is when you stab yourself, shoot yourself or whatever - not when you stand or kneel in front of a bulldozer. Following your logic, the 4,000 students at Tienanmen in China all committed suicide. Great point of view. Or could you please explain the difference.

You completely left out the point of Klaus about idealism, too.
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Old 04-08-2003, 11:48 PM   #70
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To kill a protester with an American made bulldozer is should not be considered suicide it should be considered murder by the Israeli government .... Such murder happens on a daily basis to Palestinians fighting to keep their land, homes, stores, olive fields, farms etc.... The only reason such a senerio has come to our attention is because the person who was murdered was an American. A brave American fighting for a just cause. An American truly fighting for the freedom of others. "Suicide"... No, Rachel Corrie was a freedom fighter... and the Israeli army driver ran over her not only once, but rolled back on her once again displaying the typically sick and inhumane operations of the Israel's government and army.

Many Internationals have fought against the unjust and terrorizing 50 year occupation of Palestine... They bravely use their bodies to protect civilians, farmers, olive trees, wells, houses, and other civilian infrastructure. Such daily murders and ETHNIC CLEANSING of Palestinians and now freedom fighters in favour of Israeli settlements can only increase animosity towards Israel and the United States. Palestinians see a U.S. government which they know from direct experience is not interested in human rights, democracy, or eliminating the real roots of terrorism. Because this is where it comes from. Terrorism that is. The U.S. support of an inhumane regime that continues to repress Palestinians and sieze what little remains of their land. The U.S. remains the only country that constantly supports Israel, irregardless of the over 100 broken U.N. resolutions against them. Why??? Jewish lobbyists in the U.S. influencing governent and secondly the strategic location of Israel, a so-called democratic country in the midst of all that OIL.

Of course there should be troops in Palestine/Israel... fighting for freedom and democracy... But unlike Iraq, Palestine is does not have oil, nor the support of Jewish lobbyists in the United States.

Rachel Corrie at the very least opened the eyes of some of those whose eyes were closed, and are now only learning about the inhumane injustice towards Palestinieans. For now though Palestinian community activists, resistance fighters, and ordinary civilians are being shot, tortured, rocketed, bulldozed, stoned, deported, imprisoned, humiliated, assassinated, and summarily executed on a routine basis by Israeli occupation forces and so-called “settlers?”

How many children need to be murdered in their own homes, shot while walking to school, or blown up by rockets from the sky, before the international community holds Israel accountable for war crimes? How long will America support such horrorible crimes against humanity? How long, how long must we sing this song?????????????
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Old 04-09-2003, 11:50 AM   #71
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Next to the ultimate point of this thread,
I find Gabriels angry replies most disturbing. Talking about..."They should be the next target for us"
I'm glad that he is not in power, otherwise the world would be a bloody mess
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Old 04-09-2003, 01:17 PM   #72
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I'd stil like to continue this thread and i think it would be wonderful if we could remember Rachel until there is a diplomatic solution for Palestina.
(Ok, i'm dreaming - don't wake me up )

Gabriel's discussion was overheated and because of that he's taking his timeout, it would be beautiful if we could discuss problems of government violence of Israel here.

ouizy: ok, i got that wrong because you posted emediately after my post thanks for helping me to understand you.

Klaus
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Old 04-09-2003, 07:54 PM   #73
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I don't venture in here much, so I'm late as usual

This is pretty disgusting. It's that sort of state-violence that makes terrorists out of regular people. Those houses house normal people who turn into terrorists. That's the way Isreal justifies this.

The world is upside down right now. I think I'd rather remember the sacrifice that young woman made.
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Old 04-10-2003, 08:20 AM   #74
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Quote:
Many Internationals have fought against the unjust and terrorizing 50 year occupation of Palestine...
1) Why does Isreal hold the west bank?

2) Exactly where is Palestine? Does it also include the current boundaries of the state of Israel?

Mark
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Old 04-10-2003, 02:17 PM   #75
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Klaus, I too would like to keep this thread going.

I would also like to know the answer to #2 of MadelynIris' post.

Let's start with:

Quote:
Those houses house normal people who turn into terrorists. That's the way Isreal justifies this.
Israel

I do not understand this quote. Why do these people turn into terrorists, and are you saying that because they are terrorists Israel can justify this, or are you saying that they are houses full of innocent people that Israel are labelling terrorists?


Quote:
Jewish lobbyists in the U.S. influencing governent and secondly the strategic location of Israel, a so-called democratic country in the midst of all that OIL. Of course there should be troops in Palestine/Israel... fighting for freedom and democracy... But unlike Iraq, Palestine is does not have oil, nor the support of Jewish lobbyists in the United States.
What can I possibly say? I will try to withhold my emotions about this one and say something as clear as I can.

Your Jewish lobbyist theory (in my mind) does not truly hold up as most of the US government (whether you want to admit it or not) are Christian and are from states with very low percentages of Jewish citizens.

If there were troops fighting for freedom in as you call it Palestine/Israel, what exactly would they be fighting for, or should I say whom?

It seems to me your two sentences contradict each other when you say the Jewish lobbyists are bhind support for Israel due to all that OIL, but then you say Palestine does not have oil, or the support of these lobbyists, so what exactly are these numerous Jewish lobbyists lobbying for exactly?

Your argument confuses me.

If I were asked how to resolve the Israeli/Palestinian conflict in one year's time, here is what I would suggest:

--The lands that the two groups hold would immediately be frozen (until negotions scheduled for after nine month's time.)

--A coalition of allied nations send limited troops <25,000 to be sent for peacekeeping posts only. The US would obviously lead this.

--A nine month moratorium on the demolition of Palestinian homes and businesses would be put into effect.

--All holy sites would have permanent guards.

--Israeli settlers would be allowed to remain where they lived, but no further settlements could be expanded or created.

--After the nine months go by, there would be a three month negotiation period in which a peace/land plan would have to be negotiated with the knowledge that there would be no further aid for either side, economically, humanitarian, or otherwise.

--There would also be the knowledge that troops will pull out after one year, and if there is conflict, troops would fight on the side of their allies.

--If either leader in the year's time is proven to be ineffective, troops will pull out and aid will be stopped until new leadership is in place.

Checkpoints would be set up and everyone moving in either direction would be stopped. There would be no one-way traffic for work or otherwise.

If during the time troops are in the area there is any kind of revolt, uprising or any kind of terrorist activity, the side that initiates it would have military cerfews and repurcussions.

This conflict has gone on for too long due to ineffective leadership and conflict breeds conflict.

Every bomb the Palestinians ignite causes the Israelis to take action.

Every home the Israelis demolish brings about action by the Palestinians.

It is a vicsious cycle and one that won't stop until both sides stop.

Only a third party can stop this with control and force (against both sides.)

The time is now for this to happen, and hey our troops ARE in the area...
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