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Old 03-17-2003, 04:40 PM   #16
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is it only a tragedy when its an American that is killed in Palestine?
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Old 03-17-2003, 04:44 PM   #17
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Originally posted by gabrielvox
Yeah well that perspective makes me sick.




Me too. "You reap what you sow", yes? Kinda remembers me of the mindset of those extremists who were reported to burn American flags after 9/11, of people who said "We´re sorry for the victims in the WTC, but..."

Lemonite seems to defend that kind of mindset. The side you´re on is not as revealing as the principle one can see in those remarks.
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Old 03-17-2003, 04:49 PM   #18
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Originally posted by cloudimani
is it only a tragedy when its an American that is killed in Palestine?
Sadly enough, it seems so. This is what the "human shield" protestors know. Needless to say I am against this concept.

In my opinion, it is also a tragedy when an American dies in the WTC, the same tragedy like when an Iraqi will be made to a "civil casuality" in the upcoming war, same tragedy like any Palestinian or Israeli killed in the conflict.
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Old 03-17-2003, 04:54 PM   #19
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cloudimani:

Of course not, but it's sad but a fact that international media cares more about one dead american than about the 9 palestinensians killed including a 4-year-old girl! by Israel army today.

http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/inte...estinians.html

To quote the most intelligent man i've ever read about:

"father forgive them, they don't know what they are doing"

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Old 03-17-2003, 04:55 PM   #20
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whenhiphopdrovethebigcars:

I share your opinion, every life is worth the same, every human should be treated equal.

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Old 03-17-2003, 05:18 PM   #21
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Of course it's not "only a tragedy when an American is killed", and anyone who thinks that all Americans have that mindset-well that's just sad, and unfair.

The circumstances of this horrible incident would still be a tragedy to me regardless of what nationality this girl was.

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Old 03-17-2003, 05:29 PM   #22
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Originally posted by MrsSpringsteen
Of course it's not "only a tragedy when an American is killed", and anyone who thinks that all Americans have that mindset-well that's just sad, and unfair.

The circumstances of this horrible incident would still be a tragedy to me regardless of what nationality this girl was.

I agree. It would be nice if this tragedy would highlight the treatment of Palestinians by Israel. The US needs to rethink it's support of Sharon.
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Old 03-17-2003, 05:58 PM   #23
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I have a question.

Why is Israel bulldozing hundreds (maybe even thousands) of Palestinian homes? Does anyone have an official reason for this blatantly, pointless destruction?

I don't understand how this can be a deterent to terrorism, so the logic behind this action is a mystery.

Anyone know?
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Old 03-17-2003, 06:22 PM   #24
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MrsSpringsteen:

you're right too - but i'm affraoid our media just catches atention when it hapens to our "western" people. It's a sad fact. Of course we (or at least i) saw the above mail you quoted just as a provocation to start a discussion, i don't think he realy wanted to criticize the american men, maybe the media.

Danospano:
Sharon calles it "war on terror" it's simple revenge - you send a sucide bomber to us, we bulldoze the home of you and your family.
The radical palistenensians want revenge too..
If you look back in history you see the guilt for that conflict at several places, GB, Germany, US and Israel itself (who didn't want to give back the occupied land and started to "settle" it to name a view)
At the time a great israeli politican was willing to break through this circle of violence the other side started to strike "preemptive" hardliners on both sides need that violence to legitimate their violence

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Old 03-17-2003, 06:23 PM   #25
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You might find some answers at:

"In all, seven Palestinians were killed in Nusseirat -- four gunmen, two teenage boys ages 13 and 17, and the 4-year-old girl. Hospital officials said 25 residents were wounded.

The military said Mohammed Saafen, until a year ago a member of the Al Aqsa Martyrs' Brigade, a militia linked to Arafat's Fatah movement, was involved in attacks on Israelis, including bombings, mortar fire and shooting ambushes."

http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/inte...estinians.html
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Old 03-17-2003, 06:31 PM   #26
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This is definitely horrific, but there is a responsibility question that must be asked too.

If the driver saw her and intentionally killed her, he is responsible. From the picture, it looks as if he could see her to a point, but at the time the picture was taken, she would have been obscured by the bucket on the bulldozer. Couple that with the fact that she is said to have dropped to her knees - in which case there is no way he could have seen her. I doubt the killing was intentional.

My guess is that he assumed she would move out of the way - which is what she should have done.

While she certainly did not deserve to die, and nobody should for simply protesting, she bears a great deal of the responsibility for her own death. She put herself in harms way.

Again, let me re-state - she did not DESERVE to die, but she made choices that led to her own death.

Bottom line, it was a terrible accident.
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Old 03-17-2003, 07:01 PM   #27
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Collective punishment is against international law, immoral, and sadly occurring all too often.

Many, if not most Palestinians oppose suicide bombings. Many, I hope most Israelis oppose home demolitions. No legitimate government supports or condones suicide bombers. Can the same be said for collective punishment?

Because an American died we are discussing this.

I could post article after article about children, old people, all kinds of non-combatives being killed.
I read about them on an almost daily basis. In America, we (our media) are indifferent. Unless they are perceived as being “with us”.


Elderly Woman, Palestinian Policeman Killed in Israeli Raids

"Human rights groups have slammed the Israeli practice of destroying the family homes of Palestinian activists as collective punishment and illegal .."

NABLUS, West Bank - Israeli soldiers shot dead a Palestinian policeman in the West Bank and an elderly woman was killed by flying debris when Israeli troops blew up the house of a slain activist in overnight raids, security officials said Wednesday, February 5.
- Policeman Reda Ghanen, 20, was killed as he was leaving a police station that had been surrounded by Israeli soldiers during an Israeli incursion into Qalqilya in the northern West Bank, on the border with Israel, Palestinian officials said, reported Agence France-Presse (AFP).
A second policeman was injured in the shooting, the security officials said.
Israeli military radio said the soldiers opened fire at two Palestinians whom they wanted to arrest and who were trying to escape.
In the central Gaza Strip, a 65-year-old woman was killed when the army blew up the neighboring house of a Palestinian activist, sending debris flying.
Kamla Abu Said was hit in the head by a chunk of stone as army sappers blew up the house of her husbands late son in the Al-Maghazi refugee camp, Palestinian medical and security sources said. Her body was found several hours later.
The demolition occurred during a raid lasting several hours overnight by around a dozen Israeli armored vehicles protected by two helicopters into Al-Maghazi refugee camp.
Human rights groups have slammed the Israeli practice of destroying the family homes of Palestinian activists as collective punishment and illegal. Israel has destroyed some 140 Palestinian houses till now leaving their residents homeless.
More Incursions
Meanwhile in the Gaza Strip, Palestinian security forces said a dozen Israeli armored vehicles protected by two helicopters made an incursion lasting several hours overnight into Al-Maghazi refugee camp.
During the raid into the central Gaza camp, the helicopter gunships opened fire as sappers destroyed the house of Baher Abu Said, a member of Palestinian President Yasser Arafats Fatah movement.
Initial reports said the helicopters had destroyed the house, but security forces later specified they had provided cover for the army engineers who dynamited it.
Three of the activists brothers were arrested, the sources said.
An army spokesman claimed Abu Said was behind an attack on a Jewish settlement which left two Israeli soldiers dead on November 18, 2000.
The Fatah activist was killed by soldiers in a subsequent manhunt. The army spokesman said the troops had later pulled out of Al-Maghazi.
The latest deaths took to 2,920 the number of people killed since the September 2000 Palestinian uprising against the Israeli occupation, including 2,177 Palestinians and 687 Israelis.
In addition, the army spokesman said 15 wanted Palestinians were arrested on suspicion of "terrorist activities" in more night raids in the West Bank, which has been almost entirely re-occupied since June 2002.
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Old 03-17-2003, 07:49 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally posted by One Tree Still
My guess is that he assumed she would move out of the way - which is what she should have done.

While she certainly did not deserve to die, and nobody should for simply protesting, she bears a great deal of the responsibility for her own death. She put herself in harms way.

Again, let me re-state - she did not DESERVE to die, but she made choices that led to her own death.
So, same goes for the massacre in Tienanmen in China some years ago? The Chinese military in the tanks must have assumed the students would move out of the way - which is what they should have done. I mean, the protesters put themselves in harms way. They didn´t deserve to die, but made choices that led to their own death.

Interesting concept.
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Old 03-17-2003, 07:55 PM   #29
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Originally posted by deep

The latest deaths took to 2,920 the number of people killed since the September 2000 Palestinian uprising against the Israeli occupation, including 2,177 Palestinians and 687 Israelis.
This is terrible.

Where do those Israeli helicopters come from, by the way? Ah, the Pentagon. Yeah... there was a plane attack or something a few years ago there, if I remember that right.
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Old 03-17-2003, 08:27 PM   #30
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St. Patrick's Day Edition
March 17, 2003

A War Without Balance
Rachel Corrie, Nuha Sweidan and Israeli War Crimes
By STEVE NIVA

The Israeli bulldozer that ran over and killed American peace activist Rachel Corrie, 23, in the Gaza Strip today had killed before. A few weeks ago, on March 3, an Israeli bulldozer killed a nine-month pregnant Palestinian woman, Nuha Sweidan, while destroying the house next door in a dilapidated Gaza refugee camp. Palestinian witnesses said that Mrs. Sweidan, 33, bled to death under the rubble as she cradled her 18-month-old daughter. Her unborn baby also died.

Rachel Corrie and Nuha Sweidan probably never met, but they will forever be linked as victims of Israel's 35-year occupation of Palestinian lands in the West Bank and Gaza Strip.

They are both victims of Israeli war crimes. The Geneva Conventions expressly prohibits attacks on civilian populations regardless of the motivation, even if in retaliation for attacks on its own civilians. To attack civilian populations intentionally is a war crime. Both Rachel Corrie and Nuha Sweidan were killed during military actions against a civilian population, in this case, during a house demolition.

Since June 2002, the Israeli army has destroyed more than 150 houses belonging to Palestinians allegedly involved in attacks, a policy human rights groups describe as collective punishment and which has drawn US criticism in the past.

This past month, Israel nearly set a record for killing Palestinians, mostly civilians, in a single month. According to the Palestinian Ministry of Health, Israeli assaults killed 82 Palestinians, of them 50 in the Gaza Strip and 32 in the West Bank, wounding an additional 616 persons. Israeli soldiers also killed several Palestinian children and 3 medical staff as they sought to attend to wounded. Now, they have killed an American peace activist. In this same period, only six Israeli's were killed, all of them soldiers.



Why so many civilian casualties?

These killings are the product of Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon's escalation of Israeli Army assaults on Palestinian population centers following his re-election on January 28. Since that time, Israeli forces have largely focused their wrath on Gaza. They have conducted unprecedented armored military operations in Gaza city centers, pursued suspected militants deep into refugee camps and deployed bulldozers to destroy dozens of building and homes. This latter type of operation led to Rachel Corrie and Nuha Sweidan's deaths.

Israeli sympathizers may object that these assaults and civilians killings are justified in response to Palestinian suicide bombings but international law is clear that attacks on civilians are prohibited under any circumstance.

Palestinian suicide bombings are clearly war crimes, even though some Palestinians claim they are justified in response to Israeli massacres and the illegal occupation of Palestinian land. However, Israeli military assaults that systematically result in civilian deaths are also war crimes, regardless of their justification. Both are reprehensible and must be condemned.

Moreover, few independent observers accept that Israel's assaults on Palestinian civilian centers in the past two months correlate as responses to suicide bombs. These operations began nearly a month after the January 5 suicide bomb that killed over 20 Israeli's in Tel Aviv. The only other suicide bomb this year came on March 5, well after the Israeli campaign in Gaza was underway. Furthermore, in both cases the suicide bombers came from the West Bank, not Gaza.

The reality is that Rachel Corrie and Nuha Sweidan will also be forever linked as victims of the extremist Israeli leader Ariel Sharon's relentless war on Palestinians on behalf of Israeli settlements and his vision of a Greater Israel that seeks total control of all of historic Palestine.

The escalating assaults on Gaza over the past month indicate that Ariel Sharon is preparing the way for an invasion and reconquest of the Gaza Strip to complement his reconquest of the West Bank last April. With the West Bank now firmly under Israeli control, Gaza has become the sole remaining area of armed Palestinian resistance to Israel. It stands in the way of Sharon imposing a settlement on the Palestinians that will assign them small, disconnected Bantustans surrounded by hundreds of Israeli settlements. Ariel Sharon was the original architect of the massive expansion of settlements after 1978 and continues to be their main patron.

Sharon is well known for his cold, calculating, tactical acumen, both as a General and as a politician. He is also known as a ruthless fighter and has been accused of crimes against humanity for his role in the massacre of nearly a thousand Palestinian women, children and elderly people in Beirut in 1982.

He is well aware of the sympathy Israel has received in response to the brutal suicide bomb attacks over the past few years. He knows that the world is focused on the impending war in Iraq. Thus, he has calculated that the time is right to set in motion the reoccupation of Gaza, even if it provokes further suicide bombings because he can use them as a pretext for even larger actions.

Menachem Klein, an Israeli political scientist at Bar Ilan University near Tel Aviv, outlined the logic of Sharon's actions in a recent Christian Science Monitor article (13 Mar 2003).

"These raids can be a kind of rehearsal, with the idea to arrest someone, but also to see how to get in and out, what tactics to use. A rehearsal on live people. And the thinking is that if the world gets used to these short-term reoccupations, it will digest the long-term one."

Rachel Corrie, Nuha Sweidan, over a hundred Palestinians and scores of Israeli civilians are the victims of this live rehearsal.

It is true that Palestinian suicide bombers have helped contribute to this cycle of violence through their own vicious acts. Indeed they have murdered women, children and innocent civilians as well.

However, this is not a symmetrical conflict. Israel dominates the lives and land of over 3 million Palestinians through massive military assaults, imprisonment of thousands, torture and systematic starvation policies that have lead to a major humanitarian crisis in many areas of the West Bank and Gaza Strip. In fact, Rachel had been working with other members of the International Solidarity Movement (ISM) to defend a newly dug water well from Israeli attempts to destroy it before she was killed.

Moreover, since his return to power two years ago, Ariel Sharon has systematically escalated Israeli military assaults and assassinations in search of a military solution, despite the waves of suicide bombings, in order to achieve a very clear set of political objectives. At the top of the list has been the destruction of any base of Palestinian political and military resistance to Israeli settlements and permanent control of the land Israel occupied in 1967. Gaza is his last objective.

There is no "balance" in this conflict. It is time to call Israel into account for its war crimes and time to stop Ariel Sharon from imposing his violent dream of Greater Israel on Palestinians. It is time to stop the needless deaths of Rachel Corrie, Nuha Sweidan and others, whether Palestinian or Israeli, or now, American.

Steve Niva is a Member of the Faculty at The Evergreen State College. He teaches international politics and Middle East studies. He met with Rachel Corrie before she left for Gaza in January and is deeply saddened by her tragic and unnecessary death.
St. Patrick's Day Edition
March 17, 2003

A War Without Balance
Rachel Corrie, Nuha Sweidan and Israeli War Crimes
By STEVE NIVA

The Israeli bulldozer that ran over and killed American peace activist Rachel Corrie, 23, in the Gaza Strip today had killed before. A few weeks ago, on March 3, an Israeli bulldozer killed a nine-month pregnant Palestinian woman, Nuha Sweidan, while destroying the house next door in a dilapidated Gaza refugee camp. Palestinian witnesses said that Mrs. Sweidan, 33, bled to death under the rubble as she cradled her 18-month-old daughter. Her unborn baby also died.

Rachel Corrie and Nuha Sweidan probably never met, but they will forever be linked as victims of Israel's 35-year occupation of Palestinian lands in the West Bank and Gaza Strip.

They are both victims of Israeli war crimes. The Geneva Conventions expressly prohibits attacks on civilian populations regardless of the motivation, even if in retaliation for attacks on its own civilians. To attack civilian populations intentionally is a war crime. Both Rachel Corrie and Nuha Sweidan were killed during military actions against a civilian population, in this case, during a house demolition.

Since June 2002, the Israeli army has destroyed more than 150 houses belonging to Palestinians allegedly involved in attacks, a policy human rights groups describe as collective punishment and which has drawn US criticism in the past.

This past month, Israel nearly set a record for killing Palestinians, mostly civilians, in a single month. According to the Palestinian Ministry of Health, Israeli assaults killed 82 Palestinians, of them 50 in the Gaza Strip and 32 in the West Bank, wounding an additional 616 persons. Israeli soldiers also killed several Palestinian children and 3 medical staff as they sought to attend to wounded. Now, they have killed an American peace activist. In this same period, only six Israeli's were killed, all of them soldiers.



Why so many civilian casualties?

These killings are the product of Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon's escalation of Israeli Army assaults on Palestinian population centers following his re-election on January 28. Since that time, Israeli forces have largely focused their wrath on Gaza. They have conducted unprecedented armored military operations in Gaza city centers, pursued suspected militants deep into refugee camps and deployed bulldozers to destroy dozens of building and homes. This latter type of operation led to Rachel Corrie and Nuha Sweidan's deaths.

Israeli sympathizers may object that these assaults and civilians killings are justified in response to Palestinian suicide bombings but international law is clear that attacks on civilians are prohibited under any circumstance.

Palestinian suicide bombings are clearly war crimes, even though some Palestinians claim they are justified in response to Israeli massacres and the illegal occupation of Palestinian land. However, Israeli military assaults that systematically result in civilian deaths are also war crimes, regardless of their justification. Both are reprehensible and must be condemned.

Moreover, few independent observers accept that Israel's assaults on Palestinian civilian centers in the past two months correlate as responses to suicide bombs. These operations began nearly a month after the January 5 suicide bomb that killed over 20 Israeli's in Tel Aviv. The only other suicide bomb this year came on March 5, well after the Israeli campaign in Gaza was underway. Furthermore, in both cases the suicide bombers came from the West Bank, not Gaza.

The reality is that Rachel Corrie and Nuha Sweidan will also be forever linked as victims of the extremist Israeli leader Ariel Sharon's relentless war on Palestinians on behalf of Israeli settlements and his vision of a Greater Israel that seeks total control of all of historic Palestine.

The escalating assaults on Gaza over the past month indicate that Ariel Sharon is preparing the way for an invasion and reconquest of the Gaza Strip to complement his reconquest of the West Bank last April. With the West Bank now firmly under Israeli control, Gaza has become the sole remaining area of armed Palestinian resistance to Israel. It stands in the way of Sharon imposing a settlement on the Palestinians that will assign them small, disconnected Bantustans surrounded by hundreds of Israeli settlements. Ariel Sharon was the original architect of the massive expansion of settlements after 1978 and continues to be their main patron.

Sharon is well known for his cold, calculating, tactical acumen, both as a General and as a politician. He is also known as a ruthless fighter and has been accused of crimes against humanity for his role in the massacre of nearly a thousand Palestinian women, children and elderly people in Beirut in 1982.

He is well aware of the sympathy Israel has received in response to the brutal suicide bomb attacks over the past few years. He knows that the world is focused on the impending war in Iraq. Thus, he has calculated that the time is right to set in motion the reoccupation of Gaza, even if it provokes further suicide bombings because he can use them as a pretext for even larger actions.

Menachem Klein, an Israeli political scientist at Bar Ilan University near Tel Aviv, outlined the logic of Sharon's actions in a recent Christian Science Monitor article (13 Mar 2003).

"These raids can be a kind of rehearsal, with the idea to arrest someone, but also to see how to get in and out, what tactics to use. A rehearsal on live people. And the thinking is that if the world gets used to these short-term reoccupations, it will digest the long-term one."

Rachel Corrie, Nuha Sweidan, over a hundred Palestinians and scores of Israeli civilians are the victims of this live rehearsal.

It is true that Palestinian suicide bombers have helped contribute to this cycle of violence through their own vicious acts. Indeed they have murdered women, children and innocent civilians as well.

However, this is not a symmetrical conflict. Israel dominates the lives and land of over 3 million Palestinians through massive military assaults, imprisonment of thousands, torture and systematic starvation policies that have lead to a major humanitarian crisis in many areas of the West Bank and Gaza Strip. In fact, Rachel had been working with other members of the International Solidarity Movement (ISM) to defend a newly dug water well from Israeli attempts to destroy it before she was killed.

Moreover, since his return to power two years ago, Ariel Sharon has systematically escalated Israeli military assaults and assassinations in search of a military solution, despite the waves of suicide bombings, in order to achieve a very clear set of political objectives. At the top of the list has been the destruction of any base of Palestinian political and military resistance to Israeli settlements and permanent control of the land Israel occupied in 1967. Gaza is his last objective.

There is no "balance" in this conflict. It is time to call Israel into account for its war crimes and time to stop Ariel Sharon from imposing his violent dream of Greater Israel on Palestinians. It is time to stop the needless deaths of Rachel Corrie, Nuha Sweidan and others, whether Palestinian or Israeli, or now, American.

Steve Niva is a Member of the Faculty at The Evergreen State College. He teaches international politics and Middle East studies. He met with Rachel Corrie before she left for Gaza in January and is deeply saddened by her tragic and unnecessary death.
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