2016 US Presidential Election Thread XIII

[Vlad n U 2]

How so (legit question, I'm just curious)?

As a general rule, US-based reporting on Russia is prone to exaggeration and ridiculousness. Whilst Trump may or may not have some connections to Russia, it's amusing to see the contrast between the involvement of Americans in Russia during the 1990s (and perhaps early-mid 00s when mainstream perspectives towards Putin were comparatively favourable) and now.

Anyway, it's a very long winded thing to get into and wanted to state that overall, it is easy to exaggerate connections with Russia.

Kaine lost this debate. He had so many opportunities and he just is not good at this. Pence barely bothered responding to any questions and is a huge piece of shit and all Kaine wanted to do was rile up anti-Communist nonsense for some reason.

What I find fascinating is how Democrats seem to be more eager to red-bait relative to Republicans.

 

[Vlad n U 2]

How many people watched this debate and still have no idea about all the horrible things Pence has done/supported during his time as governor?

I already know he is nothing but shite because of the party he represents.

 

[Moonlit_Angel]

Not sure about that. I amended my post to include a link to a VERY good Reddit post that sums up his time as governor quite nicely. The comment chain after it is also good.

Ooh, I'll take a look at that Reddit. Sounds interesting.

Yeah, I'd heard that about the conversion therapy thing somewhere once, blanking on where. Will do some Googling and see what articles come up on the subject.

Don't forget the fact that Indiana's lax gun laws are directly increasing access to guns in Chicago, thereby enabling the tragedies on the South Side that republicans like to point to as proof that gun control doesn't work.

Of course! The definition of a vicious cycle.

 

[PhilsFan]

No one. And no one is going to remember any of this tomorrow, save for cable news wanting to frame this to further the illusion of the horse race. Trump will tweet his latest dump and that's all anyone will talk about.

It's not exactly the sign of a great debate performance if your gut reaction is "Well, the VP debate means nothing."

 

[bono_212]

I already know he is nothing but shite because of the party he represents.

Oh, but he's SO MUCH MORE.

 

[Hewson]

What was Kaine's lapel pin?
Almost looked like a Japanese flag.'

Spoiler

Perhaps it was a Delta Tau Chi pledge pin?

 

[Vlad n U 2]

Oh, but he's SO MUCH MORE.

Which level of shit-tier is he?

 

[Irvine511]

It's not exactly the sign of a great debate performance if your gut reaction is "Well, the VP debate means nothing."

It really doesn't mean much, though. There are two more debates coming that will eclipse this.

But I agree, Kaine wasn't great. Pence, to his audience, was. Already hearing that he's now the 2020 front runner for whatever the GOP becomes.

 

[bono_212]

Which level of shit-tier is he?

Like, seriously, Donald Trump is reprehensible because of this persona that he's put on, but I couldn't care less about him because I view him as a clown.

Pence has already demonstrated how bad of a governor he is. He's selfish and careless and steps on others to push his own career and agenda. His agenda happens to be socially unconscionable, so basically what I'm saying is, he's among my least favorite human beings alive.

 

[Moonlit_Angel]

Okay, so here's what came up with my Google search.

There's this from Politifact:

True: Mike Pence advocated for 'conversion therapy' | PolitiFact California

California Lt. Gov. Gavin Newsom said Indiana Governor and Republican Vice Presidential candidate Mike Pence "advocated for diverting taxpayer dollars to so-called conversion therapy."

Pence’s own words on his campaign website from 2000 make his stance, at least at the time, very clear: "Resources should be directed toward those institutions which provide assistance to those seeking to change their sexual behavior."

and this from Talking Points Memo, which expands on his attitude on LGBT issues in general that bono_212's link touched on:

Four Major Anti-Gay Ideas Mike Pence Floated During His 2000 Campaign

At the same time, however, there is also this op-ed from the Washington Examiner that explains what they believe Pence actually meant by his stance in context (they're not defending it either way, mind, just trying to parse out what exactly they think he's referring to by "changing sexual behavior"):

Newsom is wrong, Pence never advocated subsidizing gay conversion therapy | Washington Examiner

Pence is writing about "behaviors" and people "chang[ing] their sexual behavior." This isn't about people changing their sexual orientation. It's not about making gay people straight. It's not about asking gay people to stop being gay.

That's not to say this isn't a big ask, or that Pence is correct that this is a good use of taxpayer funds. But the most straightforward understanding of Pence's suggestion is that he was encouraging celibacy for gay people.

So, yeah, even if that is what Pence is actually advocating instead of actual conversion therapy, it's still pretty shitty/dumb/insulting. Bottom line, he is definitely NOT a friend to the LGBT community by any stretch.

EDIT:

As a general rule, US-based reporting on Russia is prone to exaggeration and ridiculousness. Whilst Trump may or may not have some connections to Russia, it's amusing to see the contrast between the involvement of Americans in Russia during the 1990s (and perhaps early-mid 00s when mainstream perspectives towards Putin were comparatively favourable) and now.

Anyway, it's a very long winded thing to get into and wanted to state that overall, it is easy to exaggerate connections with Russia.

Gotcha. Thanks for the explanation .

I'll say personally that I have no problem with the U.S. having a positive relationship with Russia in and of itself, and that in foreign dealings sometimes interacting with shitty leaders is sadly inevitable to some degree. My main issue is how the Republicans try and both talk about being tough on Russia, and go on and on about how Obama's this horrible dictator and so forth, while simultaneously being friendly towards and praising an actual dictator. There just seems to be this disconnect between what they say about Russia and how they act towards Russia that I find odd, and Pence sitting there talking about how they're going to get tough on Russia while his presidential running mate is praising Putin all over the place amuses me.

 

[deep]

What is it that Kaine and Clinton do not get that Putin is a strong leader of his country. He has an approval rating of 82%

Obama and Hillary are weak, and perceived as weak.

 

[cobl04]

He also downed a passenger jet, so yknow, swings and roundabouts


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[deep]

Tim Kaine was constantly interrupting and talking over the moderator.

 

[Diemen]

They both constantly interrupted and talked over her.

I don't think Kaine's job was to win the debate. Kaine's job was to make this about Trump by bringing up Trump's outlandish statements and forcing Pence to defend them, and Kaine was smart enough to spell that out to the audience and also point out that Pence was unable to defend Trump even once.

Sure, Pence came across as more even, measured and calm, but was basically arguing from a position completely separate from Trump's (which is a nice way of saying that he flat out lied about Trump's history and proposed policies for the entirety of the debate).

 

[Vlad n U 2]

What is it that Kaine and Clinton do not get that Putin is a strong leader of his country. He has an approval rating of 82%

Obama and Hillary are weak, and perceived as weak.

War time situations with blown up patriotism generally do that. Fuck, it even worked for someone as incompetent as Abbott.

It was only four years ago that saw widespread protests from various sectors of politics towards Putin.

Gotcha. Thanks for the explanation .

I'll say personally that I have no problem with the U.S. having a positive relationship with Russia in and of itself, and that in foreign dealings sometimes interacting with shitty leaders is sadly inevitable to some degree. My main issue is how the Republicans try and both talk about being tough on Russia, and go on and on about how Obama's this horrible dictator and so forth, while simultaneously being friendly towards and praising an actual dictator. There just seems to be this disconnect between what they say about Russia and how they act towards Russia that I find odd, and Pence sitting there talking about how they're going to get tough on Russia while his presidential running mate is praising Putin all over the place amuses me.

I can see what you mean. Though I would add I find it very difficult to trust the US state/politicians given how they essentially enabled Yeltsin throughout the 90s in the many shockingly dictatorial things he did, and especially given since Putin is merely a more competent (with a more solid 'image') continuation of him.

 

[cobl04]

If anything Pence just laid a great platform for a 2020 run.

 

[phanan]

And he'll still have no chance.

 

[Headache in a Suitcase]

What is it that Kaine and Clinton do not get that Putin is a strong leader of his country. He has an approval rating of 82%

Obama and Hillary are weak, and perceived as weak.

Dude. He's a fucking dictator.

 

[LuckyNumber7]

Ha ha Clinton's a dick


Tator

 

[Irvine511]

I bet Ted Cruz has a case of the sads today -- Mike Pence just stole the dark heart of the GOP base.

 

[womanfish]

Pence was graded on the Trump curve. He was calm, so he won. Thats great, he won on composure i suppose.
But if you get down to the importance of this debate on undecided voters (which i know, this debate is not going to change many minds either way) I think Kaine did well. He hit some major points that will solidify women and latino voters, and possibly even millennials.
He also did make a really good point when he said that he gave Pence 6 different areas about Trump, and Pence couldn't defend any of them.
Also, the "why don't you trust women" remark was quite good.
And Pence saying - there you go whipping out that Mexican thing again... Did NOT go over will with Latinos from what i'm hearing this morning.

on the flip side, i can't really think of a way that Pence reached anyone new. I suppose it calmed some soft Trump supporters because he wasn't a maniac. But that's about it.

 

[Oregoropa]

Kaine interjected out of turn 52 times whereas Pence did it 19 times.

Tactically speaking you save your gotcha interruption for the perfect moment to get the full rhetorical impact. Kaine was just shooting off left and right. Lost the ability to use a power punch by alienating his audience.


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[anitram]

Was watching baseball last night so didn't see it live but saw a bit of it this morning. Pence was definitely better, came across as more stately despite the "that Mexican thing again" which is plain silly. I think the format of sitting around a table also helped. His hair freaks me out, it looks like it's painted on. He may have a future in the GOP because while his ideas are vile, he doesn't have that evil mouth-breathing quality to him like so many of their far right wingers. He doesn't seem crazy, mean or evil (though he may be all 3) and that in itself puts him ahead of most of the rest of their field.

I didn't think Kaine brought anything to the table when he was chosen, still feel that way. Thankfully since he is ass at debating, his odds of ever leading the Democratic ticket are lower than I previously thought.

As for Putin, he speaks to the worst aspects of Russian hegemony, something people who had the misfortune of growing up in the former Soviet bloc are well familiar with. So no surprise that his ratings are high when their economy is a joke, birthrate is low and general future outlook is very poor.

 

[Hewson]

. Pence was definitely better, His hair freaks me out, it looks like it's painted on. .

Thought he looked a bit like Dr. Drew...

 

[Irvine511]

What Kaine did well, and likely what they heavily prepped him for, was have clear, consice lines that will play well over the next few days in the news cycle -- if you watched the whole thing, Pence came across as more presidential than Kaine, and won in that sense. But already this morning the distillation of the debate into sound bites and clips favors Kaine --he successfully drove home the central message that Donald Trump is a maniac.

And agreed that we saw why he will never be on top of the ticket. He's a relatable white man criticizing Donald Trump. That's what the ticket needs. I can't imagine Pence's skilled demeanor winning over anyone, even if it may have reassured the base.

 

[Hewson]

Oh and this was kind of glossed over last night...


but Bill is right, I have been crushed by surging premiums since the inception of Romneycare and then its bastard cousin Obamacare. My premiums have more than doubled in that time, I pay close to $20K out of pocket annually for health insurance under these wonderful plans, they gave insurance companies carte blanche to screw customers. No "Affordable" Health Care Act should have ever been passed without including regulations on premiums.

 

[Headache in a Suitcase]

I think last night could be more harmful than some are giving credit.

Pence was able to get away without being challenged at all on his morally corrupt thinking in regards to basic civil rights. Most "average Joe's" will come away from that debate without even knowing just what a piece of shit the guy is.

Kaine, on the other hand, came off as the goofy putz that he often comes off as. It might be relatable one on one but in a setting like last night he looks really awkward.

Ultimately he didn't fully embarrass himself, so I don't think it'll do any harm to those who have already made up their minds. But anyone who's still undecided... which let's be honest are mostly middle class whites... could look at last night and go "well at least Trump has some stable people around him."

The flip side, of course, is that Pence doing well... and skipping past the Trump insults and not really defending any of them... has apparently ticked off his orange overlord, and god knows what that might lead ol' baby fingers to do... which could negate any minor bump Pence could have gotten them last night.

 

[womanfish]

What Kaine did well, and likely what they heavily prepped him for, was have clear, consice lines that will play well over the next few days in the news cycle -- if you watched the whole thing, Pence came across as more presidential than Kaine, and won in that sense. But already this morning the distillation of the debate into sound bites and clips favors Kaine --he successfully drove home the central message that Donald Trump is a maniac.

And agreed that we saw why he will never be on top of the ticket. He's a relatable white man criticizing Donald Trump. That's what the ticket needs. I can't imagine Pence's skilled demeanor winning over anyone, even if it may have reassured the base.

Yes, in short, i think Pence won the day, but Kaine will win the week.

What most people are going to see now, are clips of Kaine saying - "why don't you trust women to make their own choices?"
"I've brought of six different areas about Donald Trump and you haven't been able to defend 1."
Then they will see Pence saying "You whipped that Mexican thing out again"

And then because Pence lied over and over again about Trump not saying the things Kaine claimed he did - Hillary is now given a platform to revisit all those statements by Trump and trot them out on social media. In fact she's already started to.

So yeah, Pence was the more presidential one. But Kaine got in the shots that will keep being talked about for a few days.

 

[Diemen]

Rumors are also swirling from the Trump camp that Trump is not happy at all that Pence 1)performed better than he did and 2)couldn't/wouldn't defend him.

 

[Caleb8844]

So, since Kaine now holds the debate interruption record, is he the Angry Man Sexist now?

Am I doing this right?