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Old 09-12-2016, 08:07 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by womanfish View Post
Had she not had the incident at the memorial, no one would have known and it would have been fine.
This line of logic has literally been her campaign's entire problem.

Yes, Trump's line of attack on her health is without evidence and flat out disgusting, but her health is an issue given recent complications she had before this including all of these damn coughing fits in public appearances. Like the other mistakes, it's a damned if you do situation, but the right move is to be forthcoming. Otherwise, situations like the dizzy spell are going to eventually happen regardless, even if they're emanating from a short term condition that's relatively minor.

Staying home would have been the right call given the circumstances. It could have even become a plus since they could say she got a cold or whatever and allow her enough time to recuperate. If Trump attacks, he looks like a monster again and her getting a cold after meeting thousands of people and moving hundreds of miles a day is within reason.
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Old 09-12-2016, 08:20 PM   #32
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Staying home would have been the right call given the circumstances. It could have even become a plus since they could say she got a cold or whatever and allow her enough time to recuperate. If Trump attacks, he looks like a monster again and her getting a cold after meeting thousands of people and moving hundreds of miles a day is within reason.

For someone who spends as much time on the Breitbart sites as you do, you'd think you'd know better.


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Old 09-12-2016, 09:27 PM   #33
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I'd just like to make the observation that Donald Trump has one huge - enormous - vulnerable underbelly. Quite a bit of his rhetoric is designed to appeal to a sentiment that America ought to pull back from empire, though pretty clearly coming from a paleoconservative, not leftist, angle. And just this week I see an article in The Nation about the war without end that has been waged over the greater Middle East over the last sixteen years.

So there's that. There's real fatigue here, and maybe real disgust and dismay in some quarters. The entire political establishment is bipartisan on this. War without end. Both the Democrats and the Republicans are vulnerable, I would think. And here comes Trump sort of saying let's get out of this game. But HE IS NOT CONSISTENT. He'll say some of that, then he'll come out with this go-to-war-with-Iran garbage.

He could be absolutely holed below the waterline by a candidate who had a leg to stand on. Unfortunately there is no such candidate.
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Old 09-12-2016, 11:01 PM   #34
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i wonder if short wars are a late-19th & 20th century only thing. before then we had wars that lasted thirty years (the thirty years war) and even a hundred years (the hundred years war). almost every war was either one battle or decades long, albeit interrupted by tenuous ceasefires.

after the crimean war here are the wars involving the united states or other major wars involving great powers (not counting internal military operations besides the civil war and the cold war):

american civil war - 4 years
franco-prussian war - 9 months
spanish-american war - 3 months
world war 1 - 4 years
world war 2 - 6 years
korean war - 3 years (not counting the lack of peace treaty)
vietnam war - 9 years (gulf of tonkin to us withdrawal from saigon)
gulf war 1 - 1.5 months
kosovo war - 3 months

2000s

war in afghanistan - 16 years and counting
gulf war 2 - 12 years
war against daesh - 2 years and counting

military science and history is the study of the balance between firepower and mobility. at the moment firepower overwhelms mobility in every modern army on earth. the last time that happened was just before the start of world war 1 and we all know how that went in the early stages (if not: literal meat grinder). once mobility started to match firepower, with the evolution of tanks and aircraft, the war ended rather quickly. france was conquered in a little over a month in world war 2 because the blitzkrieg was all about using mobility to envelop the enemy and destroy them by cutting them off.

currently no military anywhere on earth gives a flying fuck about mobility or developing their maneuvering tactics. it's all about increasing firepower. bigger bunker busters, more aggressive artillery shells, etc.

the taliban and other groups like them hold the mobility advantage. they know the terrain. they move among the people. they use small trucks and cars or their feet to move around. they don't use armored conspicuous tanks and jeeps to roll around in. believe it or not, this gives a huge mobility advantage by allowing the enemy to move into battle positions without a likelihood of being interdicted. half the reason the allies won world war 2 was because of the advantage of being able to get into the rear and cause general havoc when the germans tried to withdraw to stronger positions.

unless the armies of the west figure out how to gain the mobility advantage, these wars are completely and decisively lost already. there is no point in fighting them. i don't know if that is even possible when you're on their turf.

i'm a little baked so i don't remember quite where i was going with this, but i think my point was that unless the us military wants to completely restructure their doctrine (lol not happening) there is no point in fighting foreign wars against a determined guerrilla opponent. that's a surefire way to spectacularly collapse an empire.
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Old 09-13-2016, 12:17 AM   #35
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You're on point with the reasoning and I agree with it completely. It's for those reasons that I thought Iraq/Afghanistan involvement was basically akin to Vietnam. You can never win until you just give up. Our leadership is always too damn stubborn to admit defeat, but perhaps we will elect someone that eventually sees the failure for what it is.
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Old 09-13-2016, 01:43 PM   #36
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The only story here is the ineptitude of her campaign. Their first instinct for everything is "hide this" instead of trying to get out in front of it, which would have been very easy. Would it have been pleasant? Of course not. It's a poorly timed illness given the way it could be spun. But what do they gain from trying to hide a story that everyone knows will come out anyway? It's not health issues, it's not emails, it's a consistent viewpoint that transparency is a nuisance to be avoided whenever and wherever possible.
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Old 09-13-2016, 03:27 PM   #37
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Originally Posted by BigMacPhisto View Post
This line of logic has literally been her campaign's entire problem.

Yes, Trump's line of attack on her health is without evidence and flat out disgusting, but her health is an issue given recent complications she had before this including all of these damn coughing fits in public appearances. Like the other mistakes, it's a damned if you do situation, but the right move is to be forthcoming. Otherwise, situations like the dizzy spell are going to eventually happen regardless, even if they're emanating from a short term condition that's relatively minor.

Staying home would have been the right call given the circumstances. It could have even become a plus since they could say she got a cold or whatever and allow her enough time to recuperate. If Trump attacks, he looks like a monster again and her getting a cold after meeting thousands of people and moving hundreds of miles a day is within reason.

My point was that you don't know if Trump was there with a sickness either. I think we can all agree that the candidates have all had some illness over the last year and a half that they deal with and push on.
Bernie looked visibly sick a couple of times, and my thought was - damn, i can't imagine having to push that hard 24/7. Not, shit, this is the end of his candidacy!! what is he hiding!?! Why isn't he disclosing his physical state to us!!?
But somehow, it's the Clinton rule that she has to call a press conference when she's sick, or else she's the least transparent candidate in history!!

it's so tiring.
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Old 09-13-2016, 04:02 PM   #38
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it's a consistent viewpoint that transparency is a nuisance to be avoided whenever and wherever possible.
This kind of critique is odd to me. The Clinton Foundation has been a model of transparency among charities (contrast that to the Trump Foundation). The Clintons have released over 30 years of their taxes (contrast that to Donald Trump). Colin Powell was far less transparent in how he dealt with maintaining email records while SecState. She has gone before congressional witch hunts hearings/investigations numerous times to deal with their inquisitions questions. She has admitted fault (contrast that to Donald Trump).

I'm sure this will just be added on to the "we can't seriously discuss Hillary" pile, but of all the things to bash Hillary about, transparency seems an odd choice, given that she is completely normal in that regard among her peers, and arguably more transparent than normal.
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Old 09-13-2016, 04:27 PM   #39
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I'm sure this will just be added on to the "we can't seriously discuss Hillary" pile, but of all the things to bash Hillary about, transparency seems an odd choice, given that she is completely normal in that regard among her peers, and arguably more transparent than normal.

it sounds like you're suggesting that she's subject to tougher scrutiny because she's a woman and it's just so wrong of you to play the gender card like that when you know it's because she's unlikeable.
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Old 09-13-2016, 05:07 PM   #40
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it sounds like you're suggesting that she's subject to tougher scrutiny because she's a woman and it's just so wrong of you to play the gender card like that when you know it's because she's unlikeable.
How dare you suggest such a thing.
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Old 09-13-2016, 05:18 PM   #41
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currently no military anywhere on earth gives a flying fuck about mobility or developing their maneuvering tactics. it's all about increasing firepower. bigger bunker busters, more aggressive artillery shells, etc.
Not sure about that. The Pentagon and other countries are spending heavily on mobility (stealth) and precision weapons. Just recently in the U.S. the Zumwalt class stealth destroyer (a program in the tens of billions), and what's ballooned into a TRILLION dollar F35 program. And actually, in a trade-off for stealth and a single engine, the F35 is carrying *less* firepower on board. It's all about maneuvering, electronic integration of forces, and tactics. But at an enormous cost.

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the taliban and other groups like them hold the mobility advantage. they know the terrain. they move among the people. they use small trucks and cars or their feet to move around.

i'm a little baked so i don't remember quite where i was going with this, but i think my point was that unless the us military wants to completely restructure their doctrine (lol not happening) there is no point in fighting foreign wars against a determined guerrilla opponent.
And I agree here, America takes all these hugely expensive weapons systems and will end up targeting a lot of rusty old Toyota pick-ups and soft target structures in the Middle East. In fact, the Pentagon cuts more effective, cheaper weapons systems in order to fund the new stuff.
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Old 09-13-2016, 05:33 PM   #42
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).



I'm sure this will just be added on to the "we can't seriously discuss Hillary" pile, but of all the things to bash Hillary about, transparency seems an odd choice, given that she is completely normal in that regard among her peers, and arguably more transparent than normal.

Getting your resume ready to become Hillary's press secretary?


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Old 09-13-2016, 07:23 PM   #43
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Good rebuttal.
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Old 09-13-2016, 10:09 PM   #44
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it sounds like you're suggesting that she's subject to tougher scrutiny because she's a woman and it's just so wrong of you to play the gender card like that when you know it's because she's unlikeable.
There is absolutely truth to your point, but it's also undeniable that the Clintons, Bill and Hillary both, can at times be their own worst enemy.
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Old 09-14-2016, 07:31 AM   #45
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2016 US Presidential Election Thread XIII

Undoubtedly.

I have to say, the "basket of deplorables" was a political master stroke on Hillz's part. Sure, a few people got offended, but now we're talking about why Mile Pence won't call David Duke deplorable. The more the Trump campaign is linked to the darkest, most vile elements in American society, the more suburban Republican women will vote for Hillary. The conversation has shifted back to the undeniable fact that the gas in Trump's truck is racism.

I wonder why the Trump supporters in here won't denounce David Duke?

And why does Trump love Putin so much?

Putin. David Duke.
Putin. David Duke.
Putin. David Duke.
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