2016 US Presidential Election Thread - VIII

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Axver said:
Yeah. The flaming Republican trainwreck is what it is, and no new locomotives have smashed into it for a while.

Meanwhile, the excruciating arguments between the Sanders and Clinton fans here continue to deliver on the laughs/cringes.
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I pretty much agree with this completely.
 
LuckyNumber7 said:
You're applying your own personal beliefs and specific opinions into a one size fits all critique. You're so stuck on the narrative. You need to back up, and view it from a broader perspective. The fabric of the democracy that we live in. Polarizing red and blue with an obligation to be on board one of those ships is not what it's about.
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Am I? I'm looking at the options: GOP or Democrat. I'm looking at the issues: what the election of either side means in the current political climate. Neither of those things have to do with my personal beliefs. What exactly about this isn't a broad view?
 
PhilsFan said:
Am I? I'm looking at the options: GOP or Democrat. I'm looking at the issues: what the election of either side means in the current political climate. Neither of those things have to do with my personal beliefs. What exactly about this isn't a broad view?
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You are. Your statement from the last thread was indicating that the GOP is the enemy. Because, the way you're going about it, there's some obligation to defeat the GOP that everyone must partake in. Yeah, they're pretty shitty. And I'm on board to defeat them at all costs this election. But not everybody agrees, and not everybody cares the same way you or I do. Different people care about different things. That's the beauty of our system. People can support or stand up for whatever they want. Whether or not you think that's a waste is on you. Nobody is obliged to vote alongside you, just as you're not obliged to agree with their voting choices.

Let me ask you this... if everyone has an obligation to vote against the GOP, who is voting for the GOP exactly?

There are more than just two options. There are tons of options. And every vote counts. Every vote for a democrat. Every vote for a republican. Every vote for a libertarian. Every vote for a socialist. Every vote that isn't cast, for the sake of not having someone to vote for.

You're about to become a living example of someone who "throws their vote away." What do you think Bernie Sanders is still doing in the race? What was the purpose of a clear loser in Ron Paul running in 2008 and 2012? There's more to elections than just picking the winner and the loser.

There's nothing broad about thinking that you're limited to two options.
 
LuckyNumber7 said:
You are. Your statement from the last thread was indicating that the GOP is the enemy. Because, the way you're going about it, there's some obligation to defeat the GOP that everyone must partake in. Yeah, they're pretty shitty. And I'm on board to defeat them at all costs this election. But not everybody agrees, and not everybody cares the same way you or I do. Different people care about different things. That's the beauty of our system. People can support or stand up for whatever they want. Whether or not you think that's a waste is on you. Nobody is obliged to vote alongside you, just as you're not obliged to agree with their voting choices.

Let me ask you this... if everyone has an obligation to vote against the GOP, who is voting for the GOP exactly?

There are more than just two options. There are tons of options. And every vote counts. Every vote for a democrat. Every vote for a republican. Every vote for a libertarian. Every vote for a socialist. Every vote that isn't cast, for the sake of not having someone to vote for.

You're about to become a living example of someone who "throws their vote away." What do you think Bernie Sanders is still doing in the race? What was the purpose of a clear loser in Ron Paul running in 2008 and 2012? There's more to elections than just picking the winner and the loser.

There's nothing broad about thinking that you're limited to two options.
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1. You're misunderstanding quite a bit of what I am saying. I'm not saying the GOP is everyone's enemy. I'm saying they should be IF the issues I talked about are issues that are important to you.

2. Separately, I am saying (and this is the one aspect of this that is more personal than broad, but I still consider it pretty broad) that IF those issues are not important to you, you're almost definitely coming from a place of privilege in not valuing those issues. And it's not just limited to the two I brought up, but more those in a similar realm.

3. In the general election, I would disagree. We have a winner-take-all system. In many, if not most municipalities, that means it comes down to two choices in most years. In the 2016 presidential election, for example, a vote for any non-Democrat or GOP, or a non-vote, is a vote wasted. I know of a great liberal mind whose writing I respect who is voting for Jill Stein in November. It's an idiotic vote in this particular election.

4. I think that a primary is a more fair arena to make political statements in. One of my votes is going to be for a US Senate candidate who is only polling at 4%. I think he could be back in another race down the road, and I want him to have as much support as possible now to set up that run down the road when it may be more feasible.

5. I'm all for a system that gives us legitimate means for more than two options. But we don't have that right now, and it's not because people like me aren't voting for the most perfect candidate even if they have no chance. It's because of the designs of the electoral college and the framework of our elections. That's what needs to change, not my attitude.
 
And your point 4 illustrates my point. You think it's not an appropriate venue to do so. Others disagree. Especially the disaffected and disinterested.

Sorry for the short and snippy. I've been awake for some two days now. Exams.
 
Rallying the base...

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That's pretty sad.

Neither one deserves to be the nominee if they have to resort to that kind of nonsense rather than just get enough people to support them.
 
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Hewson said:
That's pretty sad.

Neither one deserves to be the nominee if they have to resort to that kind of nonsense rather than just get enough people to support them.
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Why is it sad? It's to counter the fact that Trump was able to get an obscene number of delegates from winning small pluralities in winner-take-all states. Trump whines about the rules, but if the rules were fair (proportional allocation, like the Democrats use), he'd have no shot at a majority of the delegates.


Sent from my iPhone using U2 Interference
 
I don't think it's sad, I think it's just strategy on Cruz/Kasich to get to a contested convention. Kasich should have dropped out a long time ago, but he knows he's still got a great chance to be picked as he's more of the Bush/Romney type. Big issue with him is, not much is really known about him, so if he does get into the spotlight, can he hold up?

And the GOP doing this pretty much promises a Trump 3rd Party run, which concedes the election to the Dems.
 
just for some fun.

What do you guys think would be the outcome of a 4 way race. If Trump got screwed and he went third party, and because of that, Bernie saw an opportunity and went 4th party...
What do you think would happen?

Clinton, Sander, Trump, Cruz or Kasich...

I think no chance for Cruz or Kasich, but the other 3 would be incredibly close.

Clinton would have women and minority backing, plus some liberal Repubs that won't vote Trump.

Sanders would get youth vote, and would split indys with Trump.

Hard to say. thoughts?
 
womanfish said:
just for some fun.

What do you guys think would be the outcome of a 4 way race. If Trump got screwed and he went third party, and because of that, Bernie saw an opportunity and went 4th party...
What do you think would happen?

Clinton, Sander, Trump, Cruz or Kasich...

I think no chance for Cruz or Kasich, but the other 3 would be incredibly close.

Clinton would have women and minority backing, plus some liberal Repubs that won't vote Trump.

Sanders would get youth vote, and would split indys with Trump.

Hard to say. thoughts?
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If it were a 4 way popular vote it might be close... but in an electoral college setup, Hillary would dominate. Cruz might actually finish second, as they Republican States where Tump does best are largely Blue States in the general. If it were Kasich, the opposite may be true... where Trump finishes second but still can't grab enough to challenge Hillary.

Sanders might pick up a few states in New England but that's about it.

The only question would be whether or not the other three candidates can steal enough States from Hillary to keep her short of the magic number.
 
Headache in a Suitcase said:
If it were a 4 way popular vote it might be close... but in an electoral college setup, Hillary would dominate. Cruz might actually finish second, as they Republican States where Tump does best are largely Blue States in the general. If it were Kasich, the opposite may be true... where Trump finishes second but still can't grab enough to challenge Hillary.

Sanders might pick up a few states in New England but that's about it.

The only question would be whether or not the other three candidates can steal enough States from Hillary to keep her short of the magic number.
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I tend to think you are right, considering the electoral college process.

But I still think there would be some really interesting state outcomes. Just think of state like Georgia where Clinton crushed it, especially with minorities, but yet it's still a red state, but yet it is shifting and has a strong young demo. With a really broken up pool of votes, it could get interesting...

Even California. Nearly tied for HRC and Sanders, and Trump is way up. Could be a wild card. Florida? Both Clinton and Trump dominate, but with votes being taken away on both sides, it makes for a much more unsure race.

Can't deny that i hope we someday to get to a system like this. Although, I'm sure if we did, there would be whole new set of problems and complaints that would arise. It's always gonna suck.
 
I think a 4-way the GOPestablishment ticket is DOA. Trump has a core support that won't sway. With the Bernie-Clinton split mirroring the Democrat primary, they would be very vulnerable in ceding those states to Trump. I can easily see Trump getting above 300 electoral votes.

A Ryan/Kasich ticket wins only Wisconsin, Ohio, Utah

Clinton wins Mass, RI, NY, Maryland, Illinois, California, New Mexico, Delaware, DC

Bernie wins Vermont, Oregon, Washington, Hawaii

Trump takes everything else. NJ and CT in a squeaker.

Don't underestimate the devastation caused by a split of HRC - Bernie wings of the party. The establishment really does not want Cruz so my hypothetical takes him out of contention. An anointed ticket created out of thin air may only attract 25-30% of GOP inclined voters. Bernie Hillary fracture is closer to 50-50 nationally. Trump has independent crossover appeal in states like PA and MI.


Sent from my iPhone using U2 Interference
 
Headache in a Suitcase said:
Trump can't get over 40% in his own damn party... how on earth will he ever get enough votes in a general to take enough states to get over 300?
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Exactly. The only Hilary needs to do is to make sure there are no missteps. Basically, no "48% of America" blunders like Romney had.

Also, what has been lost in the last 6 months is Trump's character. He's done a great job of diverting the subject away from it so far but when the national spotlight is at its peak come late summer and fall, I think enough will come out to make a lot of undecided voters to stay the heck away.
 
that's nothing compared to Clinton

the most corrupt, dishonest, murderous, Wall St shill that's ever.....EVER LIVED!!!!

or that's what i've seen on FB
 
BEAL said:
that's nothing compared to Clinton

the most corrupt, dishonest, murderous, Wall St shill that's ever.....EVER LIVED!!!!

or that's what i've seen on FB
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Now there's a big Facebook movement by Bernie fans to not vote for Hilary and write Bernie in instead. I'm hoping that they all come to the realization come November that a write in vote for Bernie is essentially a vote for Trump.
 
Yep, been seeing that for months. Either write in Bernie, or Jill Stein

Even go as far to say they would rather see the country burn under Trump, than give up their values and vote for Hillary

Not selfish at all ;)
 
You never know with the youth vote.

but yeah, once the dust settles after primary season, the thought, and REAL possibility of a Trump or Cruz Presidency will make people move to Clinton
 
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