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Old 05-19-2016, 04:02 PM   #886
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Yeah, Trump would make for a shitty President. Here's hoping Clinton is a good enough candidate to win. A Trump Presidency is entirely on her shoulders if it happens and it will obviously affect the future of the Democratic Party when it comes to nominating the unlikable/non-liberal from their ranks as that's clearly a losing proposition.

The ball is in Clinton's court. She can either try to appease the millions of people that aren't party members that voted for Sanders, or she can just tell them to fuck off and go it on her own. Either way, it's all up to her and none of the Sanders supporters are responsible for her actions.
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Old 05-19-2016, 04:05 PM   #887
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The ball is in Clinton's court. She can either try to appease the millions of people that aren't party members that voted for Sanders, or she can just tell them to fuck off and go it on her own. Either way, it's all up to her and none of the Sanders supporters are responsible for her actions.
What would appease the Sanders voters?
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Old 05-19-2016, 04:09 PM   #888
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Yeah, Trump would make for a shitty President. Here's hoping Clinton is a good enough candidate to win. A Trump Presidency is entirely on her shoulders if it happens
You do realize this is the "thinking" of a 5 yo child in a tantrum.



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Old 05-19-2016, 04:15 PM   #889
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2016 US Presidential Election Thread - VIII

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Originally Posted by Salome View Post
What would appease the Sanders voters?


This is an excellent question.

It would be nice to know that it's still about policy and not a cult of personality.

(Like Josef Stalin or Gandhi)
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Old 05-19-2016, 04:21 PM   #890
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You do realize this is the "thinking" of a 5 yo child in a tantrum.
It's a two-party system, Clinton vs. Trump. If Clinton loses, then it's Clinton who lost. Children blame others for their mistakes.
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Old 05-19-2016, 04:24 PM   #891
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Sanders wants to shift things leftward...maybe make a $15 minimum wage part of the platform, and especially, an agreement to not enter the TPP or whathaveyou.

Meanwhile, rules changes. No more superdelegates. Open primaries in every state so that you can actually draw in millions who aren't Democrats into the process. After the success Sanders had running a far-left campaign, you can believe that someone running in 2024 will try and emulate that...and therefore we need to make sure that the party apparatus isn't doing everything in its power to block that, such as having hundreds of Super Delegates line up years in advance to support Clinton's VP for the nomination, etc. One person, one vote and anyone that wants to join in the process should be welcomed.

It's really not much to ask for and pretty much everything he's railed on about is something supported by a majority of the party's members. It's not much for Clinton to agree to and there's no real downside to doing so, but it's all up to her (along with the party to give enough voice to Sanders' supporters at the convention).
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Old 05-19-2016, 04:28 PM   #892
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Must work exactly the opposite in the US than over here in The Netherlands then.
Because during the election cycle here people can promise many things, what they eventually ending up doing when in government (due to having to work with coalition partners etc.) is a different matter.

Good to know that American politicians stay true their election cycle promises though
Not even a clever post whatsoever. It doesn't take a genius to see that someone is more likely to keep a promise they make before getting elected than to make one in office when they no longer need the voters. So, we're just supposed to elect Clinton and then hope for the best once she's in her Ivory Tower for eight years? Come on.

It's a lot easier to hold a politician's feet to the fire if they renege on a promise. Would love to see Clinton unequivocally state that she's against the TPP and any future trade deals of that nature...or would love to see her give full support for transgender rights even though it seems a majority of Americans are dumb enough to believe in the whole bathroom scare (which is why Clinton would never come out in favor of their right to use bathrooms of their choosing if Trump brought it up in a debate). Now is the time to make Clinton earn votes, something she hasn't done this entire cycle as she's merely been bleeding them to Sanders for months.
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Old 05-19-2016, 04:33 PM   #893
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It's a two-party system, Clinton vs. Trump. If Clinton loses, then it's Clinton who lost. Children blame others for their mistakes.

Most of us in here are adults, and we all understand that life is not perfect nor fair, and that sometimes compromises and sacrifices have to be made. So as an adult when you're facing a decision that is either this is as close as I can get with my budget or this one will burn my house down you go with the one that was closer to what you were looking for. You don't say well I'm entitled to the perfect one even though I can't afford it so I'm just going to let my house burn and blame the one that was closest to what I wanted but didn't choose.

Adult vs Entitled Child

You choose...


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Old 05-19-2016, 04:42 PM   #894
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Well that's not entirely true, he could have stayed where he was; he joined the party to get the benefits of the party and is in return criticizing everything about it. You can see where some find issue with that, right?


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It is entirely true.

Yes I agree that he joined and is criticizing and that worth criticism of Sanders.

But in regards to him actually being a superdelegate and acting like he's secretly benefiting from being one while criticizing the system is a joke because he doesn't have an option to not be one. He's a senator in the party. All party senators are superdelegates, whether they agree with the system or not.

So yeah, criticize him for joining, but don't criticize him for being a self supporting superdelegate. Nothing about Sanders' being a superdelegate and the direction he'll choose to vote with it is criticizable. His state voted for him 90-10. There's no hypocrisy over his criticism of the superdelegate system, that's ridiculous.
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Old 05-19-2016, 04:52 PM   #895
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Which is exactly what Sanders is attempting to do at the moment, but you should try and get concessions before someone is elected to office. Otherwise, they won't feel they owe you a damn thing.

Bill Clinton sure as hell didn't listen to the left in his eight years, causing cabinet members like Reich to up and leave. Unions got nothing, gays got nothing, etc. Plenty reason to think his wife won't listen either which is why she needs to earn those votes from the left.
I'm all for the left pressing Hilary to make sure she's aware of the issues that are important to people pre-election, too. I would love to hear her come out in favor of the sorts of issues you mention. And I want voters to do the same with Bernie, too-politically speaking, yeah, I'm much more aligned with him in terms of policy and things I would support, but I have no problem with voters making sure that he will act on the things he supports and promises, too. I think voters should do that with ANY candidate they support, both before the election and after it.

But again, as noted with Obama and his stance on same-sex marriage pre-election versus post-election, things can always change, too. And voters need to remember to focus not just on holding Hilary or Bernie's feet to the fire, but members of Congress and whatnot as well. So long as Republicans have control of other aspects of government, it doesn't matter how progressive Hilary or Bernie are, they're both going to be fighting an uphill battle if either one of them becomes president, just like Obama's had to for the past eight years.

That's not to say we should just give up and not try and push for what we want, of course, god, no. Some of the best and most long-lasting change in our nation's history has come from that kind of struggle and fight. But it is an obstacle we'll need to figure out how to deal with regardless.
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Old 05-19-2016, 04:56 PM   #896
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Originally Posted by BVS View Post
Most of us in here are adults, and we all understand that life is not perfect nor fair, and that sometimes compromises and sacrifices have to be made. So as an adult when you're facing a decision that is either this is as close as I can get with my budget or this one will burn my house down you go with the one that was closer to what you were looking for. You don't say well I'm entitled to the perfect one even though I can't afford it so I'm just going to let my house burn and blame the one that was closest to what I wanted but didn't choose.

Adult vs Entitled Child

You choose...
I've made my choice already. Jill Stein, once again. Thank you electoral college for making California meaningless and the hardest blue state to flip given its massive population.
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Old 05-19-2016, 05:02 PM   #897
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I'm all for the left pressing Hilary to make sure she's aware of the issues that are important to people pre-election, too. I would love to hear her come out in favor of the sorts of issues you mention. And I want voters to do the same with Bernie, too-politically speaking, yeah, I'm much more aligned with him in terms of policy and things I would support, but I have no problem with voters making sure that he will act on the things he supports and promises, too. I think voters should do that with ANY candidate they support, both before the election and after it.

But again, as noted with Obama and his stance on same-sex marriage pre-election versus post-election, things can always change, too. And voters need to remember to focus not just on holding Hilary or Bernie's feet to the fire, but members of Congress and whatnot as well. So long as Republicans have control of other aspects of government, it doesn't matter how progressive Hilary or Bernie are, they're both going to be fighting an uphill battle if either one of them becomes president, just like Obama's had to for the past eight years.

That's not to say we should just give up and not try and push for what we want, of course, god, no. Some of the best and most long-lasting change in our nation's history has come from that kind of struggle and fight. But it is an obstacle we'll need to figure out how to deal with regardless.

All good points. Two things that I need to mention...

1) It's pointless to even really care about what Sanders is doing at this stage or for voters to look for issues with him as a candidate, etc. It's over, he lost. Unless Clinton suddenly gets a brain aneurysm, he's not going to be the nominee, so I don't understand the squabbling and whatever else. Sanders The Candidate was made irrelevant as someone you can actually expect something from in office once he won the nomination, therefore, his positions on the issues or anything contradictory he is currently doing does not matter whatsoever.

2) My worry with Clinton isn't so much a lack of trying to get liberal things pushed across. I know there will be a Republican House (although a Trump candidacy is the best thing we could have hoped for in order to flip that). Therefore, she will be stonewalled and basically ineffective at getting anything done through Congress. My worry, and that of everybody else on the left, is that she'll compromise with Republicans on gutting our social safety net (cutting medicare, social security, etc.) and engage with them on passing free trade deals (TPP), things bad for the environment (fracking) and more pointless military interventionism. After all, can we really trust a Clinton without help in Congress to do nothing at all or will she try to get right-wing legislation passed so she can look more effective in the history books? I say it's the latter. Evidence? Her husband.

Honestly, if you gave me a Clinton Presidency that could be trusted not to do that. I'd be fine. There'd be her awful war-hawk nature and the continuation of Obama's disgusting drone policy and the like, but if she held the fort and didn't cave to Republicans on the rest of the issues, it wouldn't be the worst thing in the world...just another waiting-out-the-clock Presidency like the last 3/4 of Obama's, waiting for Dems to get Congress back.
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Old 05-19-2016, 05:18 PM   #898
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Latest State Polls:

New Jersey: Trump vs. Clinton (Clinton +7)
New Jersey: Trump vs. Sanders (Sanders + 12)

Sanders Spread = 5 points
Poll Source = Quinnipiac (5/19)


New Hampshire: Trump vs. Clinton (Clinton + 2)
New Hampshire: Trump vs. Sanders (Sanders + 16)

Sanders Spread = 14 points
Poll Source = WBUR/MassINC (5/18)


Arizona: Trump vs. Clinton (Trump + 4)
Arizona: Trump vs. Sanders (Sanders +1)

Sanders Spread = 5 points
Poll Source = PPP (5/17)


Georgia: Trump vs. Clinton (Trump +4)
Georgia: Trump vs. Sanders (Sanders + 5)

Sanders Spread = 9 points
Poll Source = Atlanta-Journal Constitution (5/15)



General Election Polls:

Trump vs. Clinton (Trump + 3)
Trump vs. Sanders (Sanders + 4)

Source = Fox News (5/19)




And we've seen this same thing echoed again and again in national and statewide polls throughout this election cycle. It's a shame Democrats refuse to nominate the progressive that actually gets things done and wins elections.

Or is it a vast right wing poll conspiracy?
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Old 05-19-2016, 05:31 PM   #899
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Debating polls this far out seems pointless. It will change, and drastically.

Trump has seen a surge in his polling because he is now the nominee of the GOP. Historically the candidate who wins the nomination sees a surge.

Once the dem side is sorted (meaning Bernie concedes), you'll start seeing Clinton's numbers rise as well.

And wait for the debates as well. Trump can do well 1v16, but 1:1 he's going to struggle and struggle bad.


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Old 05-19-2016, 05:32 PM   #900
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No, as we've all said in here Sanders has never been subjected to right wing attacks nor has he conceded a primary he cannot win, so the party has not yet rallied around Clinton the way the Republicans are doing around Trump. It's silly to believe polls like these are indicative of anything other than general name familiarity and the already polarized electorate. It's also silly to think Sanders' numbers would stay the same if he were to become the nominee. I worry about the fact that he hasn't been vetted. He's only ever had to answer to a liberal, rural, super white population smaller than Washington DC. Whereas millions and millions and millions of taxpayer dollars have been spent vetting Clinton since 1992.

No one here cries conspiracy other than the "it's rigged!" people.
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