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Old 05-17-2016, 02:09 PM   #796
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How can one support or not support something of which the content is as of yet unknown?
Then why did Clinton change her position on something that is "unknown"?

My point is, her stance on TPP is a bold faced lie because there's no way in hell that Clinton isn't going to enter us into that agreement if we're still active in negotiations when Obama leaves office. She'll just say a few modifications have made it "a gold standard" and that will be the end of it while she can drum up extra support saying it's the final bullet point in "Obama's legacy"

I think a lot of Clinton's other positions are where she'll sit as they're exactly the reason why there's such a big contrast between her and Sanders, but the TPP stance is just nonsense in my mind. Like lying about the super predators comment when she knew damn well what it was in context to or trying to blame the Iraq War vote on being tricked in the first debate. When you make a statement such as voting for a war because you want Hussein out (and it was politically expedient to do so) or sitting in countless closed door meetings to literally write the TPP, you can't just back track on something like that.
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Old 05-17-2016, 02:22 PM   #797
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I would wager there haves been no studies backing up that claim either.



Out of curiosity, I honestly don't know, do major US companies pay minimum wage to a lot of their employees?
Plenty of studies showing that minimum wage increases don't lead to an increase in the unemployment rate along with studies showing that lower tax rates on the rich only increase economic inequality and benefit nobody else. And it's not like we don't have evidence at our disposal, we have years of both of these things being put into effect and always leading to the same results...

As for the minimum wage, no, most people earn more than that (and far more than that, even), but bumping up the many making below $10 an hour to $15 (and there's a huge swath of people at $7-14 that immediately benefit) would have a huge effect on getting a ton of people out of the welfare rolls and stemming poverty. Likewise, if you're being paid $15 an hour just to flip burgers, there's a lot of office workers that will be expecting to be paid at least $20 an hour for a job that requires a lot more mental effort. And believe me, there are millions of people that work office jobs around the country, temporary or otherwise, that make below $15 an hour. So, by raising the minimum wage, you basically raise up everyone's wage floor.

It would be interesting if someone did a comprehensive study on social standing when it comes to all of this...I do think there's a lot of people that would willingly work for $17 an hour in a stressful and hectic office environment than flip burgers for $15 an hour if that was an option. I find it absolutely ludicrous, but over the years, I've realized that people in this country aren't exactly rational. We're talking about the same sort of morons that go ten miles above the speed limit when they're late for work ten minutes from their house...personally, status be damned, if you're going to pay me $30 an hour to clean toilets, I'll switch my occupation immediately.
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Old 05-17-2016, 03:40 PM   #798
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On the other angle, I'm a huge proponent of wet houses. So if giving a basic income to alcoholics, for example, leads to them just drinking themselves to death, so be it. It's cheaper in the long run for society, and again, it's where we're headed as a few liberal cities have gone this direction to great success (San Francisco is currently eyeing the idea).


That's one way to decrease the surplus population.
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Old 05-17-2016, 04:51 PM   #799
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Wasn't it the 2012 GOP debate, where a question was posed to Ron Paul about what does a society do with it's civilians who can't pay for medical expenses....the crowd yelled, "Let them die"

I mean, it is one way to decrease the rising healthcare costs
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Old 05-17-2016, 05:48 PM   #800
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Your point about homeowners struggling to pay for their houses makes zero sense because you're assuming said homeowners are only earning the minimum income.



Working in the restaurant industry is a job that most of its participants abhor and it's not essential in society. We don't need restaurants. I'm not saying I'm praying that the industry collapses, I'm just saying that those are the first jobs that people will flee if they no longer need to have a job. Funny enough, the extra income that people would have would presumably help a service industry like that, but I just can't see anyone wanting to actually work in that field if given a choice.

No, you misunderstood me. Your plan hinges on the cost of living being driven down, which would bring down the values of homes across the country.

First of all,not everyone abhors the industry. Are they essential to the survival of human existence? No. But I'd argue that they're essential to the fabric of society.


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Old 05-17-2016, 09:22 PM   #801
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Why would the cost of living be driven down when the average worker is earning an extra $1,000 a month and many are earning more than that since their jobs now have to give incentive for people to do them instead of earning just the minimum income?

Do we see the cost of living go downward in our country whenever the poorest start making less money? No. So why would anything change?
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Old 05-17-2016, 09:25 PM   #802
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That's one way to decrease the surplus population.
Yes, equate a progressive and intelligent proposal put into practice by the most liberal members of city governments across the country with eugenics and the like because it's yet another way to slam a Sanders supporter in this thread. You're so sharp!

Do you not support people's right to control their own lives and destiny? Are you against death with dignity? Remember when that dying guy in the debate asked Clinton about her position and she wouldn't give one because it's probably politically unpopular to support hospice care? Good times!
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Old 05-17-2016, 09:37 PM   #803
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Yes, equate a progressive and intelligent proposal put into practice by the most liberal members of city governments across the country with eugenics and the like because it's yet another way to slam a Sanders supporter in this thread. You're so sharp!

Do you not support people's right to control their own lives and destiny? Are you against death with dignity? Remember when that dying guy in the debate asked Clinton about her position and she wouldn't give one because it's probably politically unpopular to support hospice care? Good times!
Get over yourself.

The way you stated it was very Dickensian.

There's a slight difference between the rights of the terminally ill to end their life on their own terms vs an alcoholic drinking themselves to death. Not exactly the clean cut argument you're presenting it as.

You're a Sanders supporter. Great. Good for you. So are a lot of people. Not enough to win the nomination, but I digress. You're throwing out some statements as facts that are anything but, and anyone who dares disagree is simply bashing a Sanders supporter?

Right.
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Old 05-17-2016, 09:45 PM   #804
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It's twelve thousand times more money earned for the homeless and destitute than the zero dollars they're receiving now.
 
12,000 x 0 = 0.
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Old 05-17-2016, 10:19 PM   #805
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Why would the cost of living be driven down when the average worker is earning an extra $1,000 a month and many are earning more than that since their jobs now have to give incentive for people to do them instead of earning just the minimum income?

Do we see the cost of living go downward in our country whenever the poorest start making less money? No. So why would anything change?

Every model that incorporates a plan similar to yours depends on the cost of living going down. Go back to your original post before backtracking on certain social welfare programs and realizing a 1000 a month won't get you anywhere; the only way your plan is even remotely feasible is if the cost of living goes down.

Your "plan" gives everyone a 1000 a month, but takes away their restaurants, will require rentals to come down in order to accommodate those that couldn't rent before and those that will now rent for longer. So most neighborhoods will drop in price. This is just basic economics, no matter what theory you subscribe to...


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Old 05-18-2016, 07:04 AM   #806
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Sanders rolls in Oregon yesterday, loses by a half percent in Kentucky.

Mrs. Clinton beat Obama by over 30 percent in the '08 Kentucky primary.
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Old 05-18-2016, 07:42 AM   #807
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Good to see the Democratic party getting fed up with Sanders, though I'm sure that will just divide the party and anti establishment nuts.

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Old 05-18-2016, 07:54 AM   #808
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My point is, her stance on TPP is a bold faced lie because there's no way in hell that Clinton isn't going to enter us into that agreement if we're still active in negotiations when Obama leaves office. She'll just say a few modifications have made it "a gold standard" and that will be the end of it while she can drum up extra support saying it's the final bullet point in "Obama's legacy"
Well, apparently, the way the text is now Europe also wouldn't sign the TTP.
So, according to you, if after further negotiations they come to a text that both parties can sign they have both been selling "bold faced lies"?

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Plenty of studies showing that minimum wage increases don't lead to an increase in the unemployment rate along with studies showing that lower tax rates on the rich only increase economic inequality and benefit nobody else. And it's not like we don't have evidence at our disposal, we have years of both of these things being put into effect and always leading to the same results...
My point was that you have no evidence whatsoever for your claim that "The lowest paying jobs tend to be in the service industry, but those areas will have a lot of extra income arriving thanks to higher wages."
Your apparent assumption here that an overall increase in salary will translate to a similar increase in business for the service industries seems highly doubtful to me.


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As for the minimum wage, no, most people earn more than that (and far more than that, even), but bumping up the many making below $10 an hour to $15 (and there's a huge swath of people at $7-14 that immediately benefit) would have a huge effect on getting a ton of people out of the welfare rolls and stemming poverty.
And according to you these people on the $7-14 wages mostly work for companies who finance the Clinton campaign?
Because otherwise you wouldn't claim:

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Clinton doesn't want a lower minimum wage hike because there's some economic reasoning for it...she wants a lower hike because the people footing her bills don't want to pay $15 an hour to employees. End of.
I don't know. You could be right. At least if these companies are funding the Clinton campaign we can find out about it, while no one knows where Sanders' money is coming from
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Old 05-18-2016, 08:43 AM   #809
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There are a lot of minimum wage employees on Wall Street.
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Old 05-18-2016, 09:01 AM   #810
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I'm starting to think because of Comrade Sanders, Trump will be our POTUS

It's starting to get nasty now between the leaders of the party and his campaign and supporters.

Violence, threats, and publishing phone numbers of leaders?? Guess we all thought Trump was a problem.

Gonna be ugly in Philly. All because one man can't accept the outcome, and has been pushing rhetoric towards violence.

Clinton is going to be so damaged after July. I don't really like her, but we need to get behind her because of Drumpf. My hope is that she's been so used to being attacked, she can handle it. Difference is, wasn't her own party.

Still hope by End of summer Dems start to realize the threat of the Donald and pull the lever for Clinton anyway


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