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Old 05-15-2016, 03:15 PM   #736
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I would have gladly supported him or John Kerry, for all the faults both of them have, over HRC.

But we'll be fine enough. We just need term limits and/or longer terms and MOST DEFINITELY campaign finance reform or barely any of this matters anyway.
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Old 05-15-2016, 03:34 PM   #737
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I don't know why anyone would support John Kerry. He already lost an election. Is it a good idea to put the same candidate out there twice? I'd say definitely not.
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Old 05-15-2016, 03:59 PM   #738
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Adults understand these are bad ideas.
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I would have gladly supported John Kerry
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Old 05-15-2016, 04:19 PM   #739
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2016 US Presidential Election Thread - VIII

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Good example of why some of us have continually said Bernie Sanders and "true progressives" have some bad ideas.







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You might argue this (automation) was inevitable. But all the same, there is no doubt the cost of the wage increases for low-end jobs are and would continue to be passed on to the very people the wage increase was designed to help. So you either get those jobs eliminated - or you just increase cost of living for the people on the lower end. Yay! Didn't you hear? Money is free!



On top of this, it actually fouls up the upward mobility and the relative progression within the economy for these folks. Said another way, used to be you could work at a grocery store for 5, 10 years and be rewarded within the context of that end of the employment scale. By raising the minimum wage so high you've now (almost certainly) created jobs that all pay the same. 16 year old high school student, and 45 year old cashier that busted her ass at a pretty shit job - will basically make the same hourly wage. You've demotivated the workforce. Good luck frequenting these establishments and getting good customer service. Bad enough as it is.



So yeah. $15/hr minimum wage is the brainstorm of someone without both feet planted in the real world. Adults understand these are bad ideas. And for those of us who have no interest in supporting the Authoritarian Asshole, we might not be enamored with HRC but the world is a messy place where ideals go to die. And HRC is fine if only because she doesn't need such lessons. It's Bernie and the 19 year old college students, the perpetual hippies and the intellectual children like the famous Hollywood Play-Pretenders that don't understand these basic things.



Sorry to be so condescending but it gets frustrating. I'm just glad to see so many of the smart people around here echoing similar feelings. If I could dumb down my feelings into a 'bumper sticker slogan' I'd say - the world is ugly and sometimes you're better off fighting fire with fire. It's a paradox, and that's a huge reason why it's so hard to fix. The most honorable people (Bernie Sanders) always have the worst ideas, an adherence to fantasy. And the most unlikable people (HRC) are actually the smart people in the room, that end up having to pander, contort and twist, just so we can keep the crazies out of power.

$15/hour minimum wage nationwide is a completely terrible idea. Pushing labor towards automation will hurt labor in cities, but that doesn't even remotely compare to remote and poor areas. I have to think of Yuma, Arizona, which basically has Mexico's labor productivity with the American minimum wage, with the result of 25% unemployment. Or even worse, Puerto Rico. A $15/hour minimum wage probably won't have a huge effect in NYC or SF, but it will be terrible for many places in this country.


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Old 05-15-2016, 04:46 PM   #740
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If pushing labor towards automation is an inevitable product of technology, shouldn't we just jump on board and start planning now on how to offset the unemployment setback?
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Old 05-15-2016, 04:57 PM   #741
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If pushing labor towards automation is an inevitable product of technology, shouldn't we just jump on board and start planning now on how to offset the unemployment setback?

Yes, like years ago... Automation will not take over human beings though. The service industry will realize customers will want human interaction, with automation will come new coding and maintenance jobs, so all is not lost, but yes we have to plan for it.


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Old 05-15-2016, 05:20 PM   #742
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Yes, like years ago... Automation will not take over human beings though. The service industry will realize customers will want human interaction, with automation will come new coding and maintenance jobs, so all is not lost, but yes we have to plan for it.


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Old 05-15-2016, 05:35 PM   #743
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If pushing labor towards automation is an inevitable product of technology, shouldn't we just jump on board and start planning now on how to offset the unemployment setback?



A universal minimum income is on the horizon.
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Old 05-15-2016, 05:52 PM   #744
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A universal minimum income is on the horizon.

One of the reasons why I support a universal basic income is because of automation. There simply aren't enough jobs that pay well enough to provide a living anymore. Our economy will continue to be more stratified with more low paying jobs and less middle class jobs. We've been seeing this trend for a while now and it's going to continue to accelerate.


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Old 05-15-2016, 07:37 PM   #745
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A universal minimum income is on the horizon.
Speaking of absolutely terrible ideas, this is infinitely worse than a $15 minimum wage.

If you have a problem with supporting Sanders because you feel personally persecuted vis-a-vis your taxes going up then this would be a real doozy.
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Old 05-15-2016, 08:35 PM   #746
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Speaking of absolutely terrible ideas, this is infinitely worse than a $15 minimum wage.

If you have a problem with supporting Sanders because you feel personally persecuted vis-a-vis your taxes going up then this would be a real doozy.
So what's your solution to the increasing unemployment that seems to be an inevitable consequence of automation? New technology is not yet creating nearly as many jobs as it replaces, and the jobs of designing, implementing, and maintaining these technologies require skills and qualifications well out of the reach of many of the people they replace.

I'm not saying I'm a universal minimum income advocate, since I haven't seriously dug into the issue and have some questions about the economic consequences, but your post seems rather hastily dismissive given that we're going to need to respond to automation somehow.
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Old 05-15-2016, 08:40 PM   #747
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Speaking of absolutely terrible ideas, this is infinitely worse than a $15 minimum wage.

If you have a problem with supporting Sanders because you feel personally persecuted vis-a-vis your taxes going up then this would be a real doozy.
Taxes need to go up. UP !

For the bracket or three above ME.
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Old 05-15-2016, 09:02 PM   #748
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They overshot at 15 dollars. I'm all for an incremental bump each year depending on coast of living and locality.


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Old 05-15-2016, 09:07 PM   #749
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They overshot at 15 dollars. I'm all for an incremental bump each year depending on coast of living and locality.


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If they were to enact $15/hr it would be incremental. Not abrupt. The complaint is that we are not keeping up with the needs. I don't think such a change would be so ignorant as to forget that the change (or lack thereof) is critical.
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Old 05-15-2016, 09:24 PM   #750
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So what's your solution to the increasing unemployment that seems to be an inevitable consequence of automation? New technology is not yet creating nearly as many jobs as it replaces, and the jobs of designing, implementing, and maintaining these technologies require skills and qualifications well out of the reach of many of the people they replace.
People have been making the argument that automation will put vast majorities of people out of work for decades if not a couple of centuries now. But we have adapted, people have redeployed, education systems have changed, etc. We can invest in skills and qualifications, it's a better solution than diminishing the labour force and incentivizing people not to work through what would essentially amount to a massive transfer of wealth.

As a woman, I also think that this would primarily disincentivize women from joining the labour force and/or would incentivize them to remove themselves from the labour force which is not a positive outcome.

Raising the minimum wage is a very, very complex economic issue, and the article posted does a pretty great disservice to it as it focuses on a single cost (while ignoring other costs and entirely ignoring benefits). YES, raising the minimum wage would result in some job losses, whether that be through incentivizing, or more accurately, accelerating, automation or through businesses deciding to downsize. Proponents of a $15 minimum wage should honestly declare this as a cost. But just because something has a negative consequence doesn't mean it shouldn't be done. For example, you would also have plenty of businesses retain employees and those employees would now have significantly more $ to spend, thus providing a boost to the economy. That boost must be weighed against the unemployment consequences, rather than ignored. This is but one example, there are many others.
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