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Old 05-11-2016, 01:18 PM   #691
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For me the it's the "Us vs Them" mindset that has totally set in. As many others have said, and detailed out, the differences between Clinton and Sanders is not much. Yet, if you go off what has been lobbed over by the Sanders campaign, you'd think Clinton was the one who dropped party association to join the Democratic party.

Clinton has been through the ringer many, many times. She handles it very well (as did Obama), but no such thing has happened to Bernie. He basically is getting to campaign with no push back. Clinton can't really attack him out of fear of really losing his supporters for the general, so it's just bombs being thrown from one side.

There is an issue with $ in politics, and Sanders has run that into the ground. Trump has brought it up a bit too, playing off of that fear that our politicians are all bought and paid for (and some truth is there).

My curiosity is with Sander's campaign finance. I just find it a little odd he's gotten so much money, and very little has looked into where it's coming from. Even Obama joked about it with the line of 100k deposits of $27 each. Just seemed odd that he was able to out fund a candidate that has the backing of all the evil banks and establishment....
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Old 05-11-2016, 01:36 PM   #692
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But they know he's a fraud, they just don't care. Everyone has pointed out he's a liar, a failure, and has flip flopped on every single major issue of this election, they just don't care. This is not about issues with them, this is not about if he's a fraud or not. You could put Charles Manson up there, put him in a suit, put an R behind his name, tell him to yell about the Mexicans and Muslims, and tell the people he's not "establishment" and they would vote for him.

Actually pointing out he's dangerous is the best thing she can do now. Other than that she needs to step back and let him resort to his child like antics, let him weasel his way out of debates or squash him in debates, but other than that there's not much else she can do. She needs to play it cool, don't galvanize those that might stay home, if she can do that the math is on her side.
Yeah, I do not really agree with any of this. I think it's convenient and lazy to just say "they know their candidate is a shithead and they're just totally indifferent to it." And I think calling him dangerous instead of attacking his record and his lack of policy feeds back into his whole "I'm the bold choice because I'm the outsider, I'm not a politician" thing.
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Old 05-11-2016, 01:36 PM   #693
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Trump has received 10.9 million primary votes. Romney received 60.9 million general election results. I rest my case. Unless you think someone as vile as Trump is going to get all 50 million of those outstanding voters that have yet to cast a ballot for him and somehow earn another 5 million plus from god-knows-where .
Shouldn't your equation also include the fact that Romney got 10,031,336 votes in the primaries?

Trump has already received almost a million more and we still have California and a few more states to go.
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Old 05-11-2016, 01:37 PM   #694
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No, they haven't.
Scott Brown.
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Old 05-11-2016, 01:44 PM   #695
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i have searched myself, deeply, as to why i can't get on the Sanders train this election cycle. i obviously admire Obama, and have never loved HRC, especially in 2008. but as this campaign wears on, and i increasingly come to the realization that Bernie is scapegoating me by virtue of vowing to raise my taxes and tax me at the same rate as people who make double or triple my salary, and for him to say that i'm the problem, somehow, is really irritating. i agree with progressive taxation. i think single payer is better. i believe in regulation. but i also find myself right in that income bracket that's going to be squeezed the most, and also feel the most pain because i look rich on paper to Sanders -- who lumps me in, through his tax plan, as a "millionaire and billionaire" -- even if reality is vastly different.
I hate to say something as simplistic as "duh" but really it is true. The vast majority of people out there vote to further their self-interest.

This is why I don't get why some people are ardently trying to prove that the other side's supporters are the problem or whatever. Hello, how many people out there do you know who will blatantly go against what will further their interest the most?

In the last election I voted directly against my own economic interest but my reasoning was that I was in some ways more personally affected by a non-economic issue at the time (the blatantly racist new 2-tiered citizenship introduced by our old Prime Minister). So even in that case, I voted for something that meant the most to ME, just so happens that by doing so I had to give up certain financial perks.
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Old 05-11-2016, 02:11 PM   #696
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Yeah, I do not really agree with any of this. I think it's convenient and lazy to just say "they know their candidate is a shithead and they're just totally indifferent to it." And I think calling him dangerous instead of attacking his record and his lack of policy feeds back into his whole "I'm the bold choice because I'm the outsider, I'm not a politician" thing.

I was in your same boat a few months ago, I wanted to believe that the fever would break and people would come to their senses and start actually looking at his policies. They didn't, and they won't. This place is a prime example.

Attempt to have a policy talk with a Trump supporter, it's fucking mind numbing. The media has shown him lying on air, they've dove into his failures, even his own party called him out over and over, they do not care. Heads are buried deep in the sand.



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Old 05-11-2016, 02:15 PM   #697
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Shouldn't your equation also include the fact that Romney got 10,031,336 votes in the primaries?



Trump has already received almost a million more and we still have California and a few more states to go.
Fuzzy math indeed.


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Old 05-11-2016, 02:33 PM   #698
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Shouldn't your equation also include the fact that Romney got 10,031,336 votes in the primaries?



Trump has already received almost a million more and we still have California and a few more states to go.

In fairness, it's expected that the winner get more votes this round than in 2012. Trump isn't really... outpacing... Romney.
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Old 05-11-2016, 03:01 PM   #699
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For me the it's the "Us vs Them" mindset that has totally set in. ....

'There is no them there's only us, only us. There is no them, there's only us'


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Old 05-11-2016, 03:05 PM   #700
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In fairness, it's expected that the winner get more votes this round than in 2012. Trump isn't really... outpacing... Romney.
Yeah, Republican primary turnout is much higher in 2016 than in 2012, so Trump getting more votes than Romney isn't a huge deal.
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Old 05-11-2016, 03:05 PM   #701
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For me the it's the "Us vs Them" mindset that has totally set in ...


'There is no them there's only us, only us. There is no them, there's only us'


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Old 05-11-2016, 03:09 PM   #702
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Yeah, Republican primary turnout is much higher in 2016 than in 2012, so Trump getting more votes than Romney isn't a huge deal.

Generated by 4 more years of Obama. Generated by a tea party movement. Generated by a far more loathed Clinton. By failure of the Repubes to put forward a winner. Also the mere fact that both primaries are ongoing -- elections tend to be more intense. Population growth probably tends to have each primary equal to or larger than the last primary. Plus, the ever so evolving world of social media.

I would also say that 3-4 candidates is a happy medium for maximizing voter turnout.
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Old 05-11-2016, 03:09 PM   #703
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Scott Brown.
You mean Democrats losing a super low-turnout off-year election that didn't even occur in November and had the Democratic nominee deciding not to campaign? Sorry, but that's not representative at all.

It's a Presidential election year. Turnout is high, Clinton has hundreds of millions backing her campaign and she's not going to just go on a vacation in the middle of the home stretch. There is no mathematical way that Trump can suddenly make up that deficit of 5,000,000 plus votes that he will trail her behind if he suddenly becomes as popular as Mitt Romney.

There will never be another Republican President unless the right combination of major scandals or pointless foreign military intervention comes to fruition. And even then, the timing has to be just right. A Democratic President that resigns a mid a scandal as is replaced far enough out from an election will just result in the new Democratic President being handily re-elected. The win is literally now baked into the American fabric thanks to the changing demographics and it's only going to get easier.
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Old 05-11-2016, 03:11 PM   #704
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it's the limitation of Sanders' view of the problems that gets me. i don't see any of his solutions as either realistic, in concept, or detailed, in execution. not even he knows how to "break up the banks." heavy taxation sounds nice, to some, but get that through Congress and not suffer heavy losses in the 2018 midterms.
If Clinton's approval rating were sitting at 60% by November 2018, she'll still get drubbed in the mid-terms. Sitting party is the one that takes congressional losses nearly always (only avoiding it twice since World War II) and it doesn't help that Republicans are more reliable voters.

Americans overwhelmingly support tax raises on the rich including a majority of Republicans in various polls. It's not a losing issue whatsoever.
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Old 05-11-2016, 03:16 PM   #705
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Yeah, Republican primary turnout is much higher in 2016 than in 2012, so Trump getting more votes than Romney isn't a huge deal.
So let me see if I have this straight, more Republicans voting in 2016 primaries than 2012, and more of them voting for the presumptive nominee in 2016 than the 2012 nominee automatically equates to less of them voting for said nominee in the general than 2012?

Just want to be sure I understand how the math works.
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